An Eruption of Disruption

4 Aug

As congressmen and women return to their districts during the break, they will hold town hall meetings in an effort to listen and discuss issues with their constituents, many of whom may be distressed by what’s happening in Washington.

Some of the distress will be sincere, some of it will have its genesis in dumbed-down cable news misinformation and chain e-mails, and some of it will be astroturfed.  (Fake grassroots).

While Buffalo Repat draws parallels between lefty town hall disruptions from the likes of Code Pink and the righty disruptions at health care town hall meetings,  Buffalo Geek rebuts that, pointing out that Code Pink are funded by:

“Big Peace” and “Big Non-Profit” and “Big Wealthy People Advocating For Higher Taxes On Themselves”

Remember when some woman disrupted McCain’s acceptance speech at the Republican Convention last year?  I shook my head in embarrassment when that happened.  I don’t think that these sorts of confrontational tactics work.  What war has Code Pink prevented the US from participating in?  What war has Code Pink successfully stopped?  There’s a right to free speech, and no qualification there about them having to be accompanied by good manners, but if you’re disruptive, you should be ejected.

And I thought the right hated lefty troublemakers like Code Pink.  Why emulate them?  They didn’t succeed in their aims, after all.

But with respect to the upcoming disruptions of health care town halls, the funding, initiative, and organization behind this is strictly astroturfed by Washington lobbyists and special interests who want to maintain the status quo.  Period.

For instance, the tea bagger crowd is planning to disrupt town halls that Eric Massa (D, NY-29) will be holding in the coming weeks.  But their tactics will have been spelled out for them by someone working for a lobbying group run by Dick Armey called “FreedomWorks“. (Website here).

They have a right to attend, a right to question, a right to disagree, a right to dissent.  They even have a right to be disruptive douchebags.  And the goal here is to get media coverage so that there is a perception on local TV news that there is a grassroots outpouring of disgust with “Obamacare”.

Based on what I’ve heard and read, the grassroots disgust has been mostly aimed at the misinformation being spread about the current health reform bill rather than its actual contents.   Obama’s going to kill seniors!  I’m going to lose my healthcare plan! Government takeover and socialism!  None of those things are true, so the manufactured outrage is based on a lie being well-funded by private interests who have a stake in maintaining the status quo.

I would be kind of pissed off to find out I’m just a tool in, say, Pfizer’s campaign to quash healthcare reform.

103 Responses to “An Eruption of Disruption”

  1. Mike August 4, 2009 at 8:23 am #

    All current social commentary has it’s roots in Rod Serling’s Twilight Zone show from the 60’s. Research the “Monsters are due on Maple St” episode for a brilliant look at current “we the people” organizations. Keep in mind this was produced over 40 years ago..!

  2. Hank August 4, 2009 at 8:29 am #

    No Worries Alan! Unlike my own congressman, who is holding a town hall in each of the 10 counties he represents, Brian Higgins will have NO open meetings of any kind during the recess. But, if you’ve got money you want to give him, he’ll be sure to make a place at the table for you. Why give him any money–what Reichsfuehrer Pelosi tells him to do, he’s gonna do, no?
    Seems like you’re making much of protests in the planning stages instead of asking why Higgins dosesn’t give enough of a shit about what his constituents think to even make believe he’s listening, unless you pay him. Typical NYS politics. Money talks, opinions and concerns of the people can take a long walk off a short fucking pier. Surprised you left so much air in your post.

  3. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 9:54 am #

    Fact: the public option will lead to socialized health care. On the way to socialism, costs will rise and quality will fall. Government monopolies do not work. The idea that a public option can compete with private insurance, without enjoying advantages that will kill private insurance, is one of the stupidest, nonsensical ideas ever proposed. Why YOU people advocate ruining what is arguably the best health care system in the world is FUBAR! Government programs are notorious for starting out small and then encroaching on as much of our lives as possible. There is already a rationing plan in place for the swine flu vaccine this fall. The post office is closing branches. Medicare has been broke and the future UNFUNDED liabilities are described as UNSUSTAINABLE by the Government Accounting Office (Oct. 2008). Amtrak is a money pit. It is time to recognize that progressive policies based on faulty emotion equals government going broke. Fix the shit that is already broke before letting government break even more.

    This logical inference is not manufactured outrage and is not funded by “private interests”, it is commonsense.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 10:28 am #

      No one’s talking about costs falling. People are talking about costs not spiraling out of control. False premise for a false argument.

  4. Mike August 4, 2009 at 9:57 am #

    Hank…You are correct..”Money talks” to the tune of 1.4 million PER DAY being spent by the health insurance interests during this congressional recess to drown out the “opinions and concerns of the people”..Now..that’s true astro-turf support..(with kudos to the old Monsanto Corp..who brought you Agent Orange)

  5. Chris Smith August 4, 2009 at 10:01 am #

    1st comment out of the box and we get a Nazi reference. Good times!

  6. STEEL August 4, 2009 at 10:12 am #

    Your health care coverage and treatment can’t get any lower than it is when you lose your coverage. Everyone who is currently employed with health benefits is at risk of having everything they worked for stripped away perhaps even their life. Lose your job lose your benefits and you get no say in the matter. How many of these right-wing protesters will have their hands out with outrage looking for government coverage once they lose their job. Too many in this country lead their lives thinking bad stuff only happens to others. Everyone in the country except for the very rich should be worried about the devastating changes that can be brought onto their families by our current failed system.

  7. STEEL August 4, 2009 at 10:23 am #

    1. I don’t think anyone can argue that our health insurance system is the best in the world. As for our health “care” system (which is actually different that insurance) data shows that our system is not the best in the world.

    1. Swine flue vaccine is rationed because private industry is unable to make enough of it. It was government that actually identified the need for the swine flue vaccine.

    3. The post office can deliver a letter across town over night for 40 some cents, anyplace in the country in 3 days for the same price (DOOR TO DOOR !)

    4. Medicare is going broke because it is underfunded ( it is underfunded due in great part to Republican actions). Medicare covers a segment of the population that private industry refuses to cover.

    5. Amtrak as well as Conrail were crated because a major portion of the US privately run rail system went into collapse in the 1970’s.

  8. The Humanist August 4, 2009 at 10:36 am #

    @ Mike in WNY – “Fact: the public option will lead to socialized health care…

    Do tell…where is this “fact” verified?

  9. Rottenchester August 4, 2009 at 10:40 am #

    On the “success” of Code Pink, et. al, there’s a view among the right-wingers in the Rochester area (e.g., Monroerising) that part of the reason Randy Kuhl was defeated was the protests at his town hall meetings. Not true: it was his response to the protests that did him in. The protesters weren’t disruptive (they stood quietly, or offered up petitions). Kuhl overreacted to the protests, demanding that debates be closed studio affairs, stopping town hall meetings, etc., and I think that was a big reason for his downfall.

    This is a lesson for the current freshmen in Congress: don’t run away from birthers/teabaggers, even if they are disruptive. Alan is right that disruption is generally frowned upon, and nobody’s going to cry if the cops throw out a few loudmouths (generally, they’ll laugh and applaud).

  10. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 10:56 am #

    Empirical evidence, dear Humanist, the pattern is well established with previous government “reforms”.

    There is also the Obaminator’s own words regarding universal health care – “Everybody in, nobody out, a single payer health care plan, universal health care. That is what I’d like to see but as all of you know, we may not get there immediately. First we have to take back the White House, the Senate . . .”

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 11:05 am #

      @Mike in WNY, When government reformed Welfare, it led to socialized welfare? When government passed the Voting Rights Act it led to socialized voting?

  11. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 11:22 am #

    The Voting Rights Act is not a bill that took rights and freedom from people, the analogy doesn’t wash. Besides, Obama’s own words support what I stated.

    When I mentioned pattern, the pattern was not that every government plan leads to socialism, the pattern is that once the foot is in the door, it will be kicked wide open.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 11:27 am #

      Yes, I am well aware of the slippery slope argument. That’s why Medicare led to our nationwide single-payer health care system, and why the advent of hate crime legislation brought about the creation of our thought police.

  12. mike hudson August 4, 2009 at 11:53 am #

    niether president obama or the media, which wildly and overwhelmingly supports him, has made it clear to the american public — the majority of whom already have health insurance — that the incomprehensible 1,000-page plan will not lead to a reduction in what they already have, or to higher taxes they can ill afford.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 12:06 pm #

      As to what Hudson said, I was thinking about that this morning – for all of his touted communication skills, Obama’s done a piss-poor job explaining and promoting his health care plan (regardless of what you think of it).

      It could be that he’s just doing a piss-poor job while Congress gets busy screwing it all up, or else maybe he has something up his sleeve to throw it back in congress’ face with a well-publicized flourish if it doesn’t do what he wants it to do.

  13. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 11:55 am #

    @Steel
    1. The WHO rankings are influenced by factors other than health care. Such as, diet, living habits, gang murders, lies from participating countries and many other factors. Desmond Tutu came here, to Memorial Sloan-Kettering Hospital, to be treated for prostate cancer because we have the best health care. So have many others.
    2. Much of the data that led to “naming” and identifying the swine flu came from private sources. Also, government’s role does not mean that it is better, just that it is because it has monopolized that role.
    3. The post office is deficit laden and requires subsidies. The incentive to improve efficiencies is nonexistent.
    4.Read the GAO report, Oct. 2008, Medicare is not broke because it is underfunded, funding the program is unsustainable. Many doctors refuse to participate. Obamacare will result in people going into other fields of work rather than working their asses of in college and be subjected to the government’s reimbursement rates. That is the reason Canada has a significant shortage of physicians.
    5. Amtrak was supposed to end after 2 years, it was a “temporary” program. Both Amtrak and Conrail took over less than private monopolies that were a result of the Interstate Commerce Commission freezing out competition through regulations. People confuse profit and the free-market. Businesses priority for profit is exploited by self-serving politicians and results in favorable regulations that nullify a free-market. In a true free-market, competition keeps the profit motive in check while encouraging innovation. That does not happen in government run programs. You end up with high costs and little or no improvements, if not an outright decline in service.

  14. The Humanist August 4, 2009 at 12:03 pm #

    Not to mention:

    – child labor reform leading to American youth becoming obese from lack of work

    – nutritional labeling leading to the crippling of food producers, fast food conglomerates, etc, collapsing under the weight of having to add an extra 4 inches of content to their labels

    – the tyranny of the Surgeon General’s report on cigarettes unfairly pointing out that the tobacco companies’ products actually kill their customers

    – the establishment of the National Aeronautical and Space Administration, giving us a pointless exercise to celebrate 40 years later

    – the Peace Corps (and, later, AmeriCorps) enslaving everyone’s kids to work in socialist communes around the world

    – the Rural Electrification Act which forced electrical distribution systems into areas of the country that preferred to stay in the dark (some still do)

    When you say that the public option will lead to socialized health care, that’s your opinion, not a fact. I think your opinion is full of shit, but you’re welcome to air it. Just don’t insult our intelligence by calling it a “fact” and then dredging out the tired “empirical evidence” line when you can’t name a single Federal program that has led to socialism, in any reasonable definition of the term.

  15. Eric P. August 4, 2009 at 12:40 pm #

    The meatheads who are shouting down the speakers at town hall meetings are obnoxious and inarticulate. Nobody benefits from that kind of nonsense. It’s a safe bet that these very same meatheads are professed christians… don’t get me started….

    Insurance reform is needed – but somehow that is Socialism, Naziism or something even more insidious, like – after “they” control our health care “they’re” going to harvest us for soylent green.

    BTW, soylent green tastes like chicken.

  16. Russell August 4, 2009 at 12:46 pm #

    Are those the only options, BP? Of course the thought that he’s failing, in over his head or done something wrong could not possibly cross your mind.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 1:31 pm #

      Are those the only options, BP? Of course the thought that he’s failing, in over his head or done something wrong could not possibly cross your mind.

      Quite right. They should have just said, “we’re expanding Medicaid to everyone”.

  17. Brian August 4, 2009 at 1:06 pm #

    Mike in WNY:

    “Desmond Tutu”? Really? Frrah Fucking Fawcett went all the way to Germany for her cancer treatment.

  18. Mike Walsh August 4, 2009 at 1:31 pm #

    “It could be that he’s just doing a piss-poor job while Congress gets busy screwing it all up, or else maybe he has something up his sleeve to throw it back in congress’ face with a well-publicized flourish if it doesn’t do what he wants it to do.”

    No matter what side of the debate you’re on it’s also unclear as to who’s benefiting and who’s not. There’s been an army of lobbyists lined up outside congress for a long time trying to tilt things their way. The statement about spending money now to save money in the future doesn’t make any sense either. When was the last time something like that ever materialized? Anybody remember what the original projections for Medicare costs were? How about the prescription plan? How can you extend coverage and/or subsidize 45 million more people and not have either tremendous new cost outlays or substantial cuts in services covered? Maybe both? The debate is just rhetoric on all sides while the details seem to be fuzzy.

  19. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 1:32 pm #

    @Humanist, I can’t insult something that does not exist. You need to learn how to follow logic. My premise is that government programs, once enacted, grow larger. The empirical evidence is virtually every government program ever enacted. The logical conclusion is that if a “public option” is enacted, it will grow larger at which point we will have socialized health care.

    “Everybody in, nobody out . . .” – further evidence to support my logical conclusion.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 1:41 pm #

      You need to learn how to follow logic.

      This is a favorite line for Ostrowski, too, lately. The logic, Mike, is that you used a facile slippery slope argument to “prove” something.

      Welfare reform shrunk the program and the number of people on it. All done kthx.

  20. Mike Walsh August 4, 2009 at 1:40 pm #

    • Sec. 205, Pg. 102, Lines 12-18 – Medicaid-eligible individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid. No freedom to choose.

    • Sec. 223, Pg. 124, Lines 24-25 – No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No “administrative of judicial review” against a government monopoly.

    • Sec. 225, Pg. 127, Lines 1-16 – Doctors – the government will tell YOU what you can make. “The Secretary shall provide for the annual participation of physicians under the public health insurance option, for which payment may be made for services furnished during the year.”

    • Sec. 312, Pg. 145, Lines 15-17 – Employers MUST auto-enroll employees into public option plan.

    • Sec. 313, Pg. 149, Lines 16-23 – ANY employer with payroll $400,000 and above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payroll.

    • Sec. 313, Pg. 150, Lines 9-13 – Businesses with payroll between $251,000 and $400,000 who do not provide public option pay 2-6% tax on all payroll.

    • Sec. 401.59B, Pg. 167, Lines 18-23 – ANY individual who does not have acceptable care, according to government, will be taxed 2.5% of income.

    • Sec. 59B, Pg. 170, Line 1 – Any NONRESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay for their health care.)

    • Sec. 431, Pg. 195, Lines 1-3 – Officers and employees of HC Administration (government) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial and personal records.

    • Sec. 441, Pg. 203, Lines 14-15 – “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax.” Yes, it says that.

  21. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm #

    @Alan, Welfare spending on the federal level has more than doubled since 2000. That does not abount to shrinkage.
    @Brian, Farrah Fawcett illustrates the greatest shortfall of our already over-regualted health care system, the same shortfall that drives up costs. The shortfall is lack of choice and that will increase with the increase in government health care.

  22. Russell August 4, 2009 at 2:14 pm #

    Actually BP, the slippery sloap argument was originally proven by Max Weber. He pointed out that once institutions are created they take on a life of their own with their goal being preservation and expansion. This view of bureaucracy has been expanded on by numerous scholars since, including some of the best work in this line being done by Douglass North.

  23. Hank August 4, 2009 at 2:35 pm #

    Oh, Jeez—don’t start quioting the BILL!!! We’re supposed to trust our elected representatives, who have chosen not to read it, or , as in the case of Brian Higgins, won’t even listen to what you have to say unless you flourish cash in his face, which everyone forgot was the beginning of this post.

    Obama’s better than Bush Anyway—it took Bush 2 years to raise the deficit by 1 trillion dollars—Barry did it in 6 months!!! Now there’s change we can believe in!!!

  24. Hank August 4, 2009 at 2:38 pm #

    And Geek—The Reichstag was overseen by Reichfuehrer Goering. The One-Party US Congress is overseen by 3rd in line to the Thone—Except this time it’s not Deputy Fuehrer Rudolf Hess, then Goering, It’s Deputy Fuehrer Biden, and Reichsfuehter Pelosi. Next thing you know they’ll be arresting Republicans before votes are taken so the outcome is the “100% will of the People”. Don’t be a twit—study National Socialism, so in a year or so you’ll see all the parallels.

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 3:44 pm #

      And Geek—The Reichstag was overseen by Reichfuehrer Goering. The One-Party US Congress is overseen by 3rd in line to the Thone—Except this time it’s not Deputy Fuehrer Rudolf Hess, then Goering, It’s Deputy Fuehrer Biden, and Reichsfuehter Pelosi.

      There are members of two parties serving in the House of Representatives. Between 1994 – 2006 it was the Republicans who ran the joint. Was it “Reichsfuehrer Gingrich” oder “Reichsfuehrer Hastert”?

      Reductio ad Hitlerum. Once it’s invoked, you lose.

      Next thing you know they’ll be arresting Republicans before votes are taken so the outcome is the “100% will of the People”. Don’t be a twit—study National Socialism, so in a year or so you’ll see all the parallels.

      Or none of them. Either way.

  25. STEEL August 4, 2009 at 2:47 pm #

    “Barry” did it because of the complete mess left behind by Bush. Failed wars, failed banking system, failed auto industry, failed housing industry, failed health insurance industry…All occured under Bush but listen to the right wing and it was all “Barry’s fault 2 minutes after his inauguration. Hahahahah. The right wing can be so funny even though they don’t know it.

    I love how some people use the name Barry as if it is an insult….but I guess if that is all you have you have to use it.

  26. Russell August 4, 2009 at 3:02 pm #

    STEEL, the blame Bush excuse has gotten old and the masses are beginning to reject it. Obama needs to start taking responsibility for his own mistakes.

  27. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 3:59 pm #

    Invoking reductio ad Hitlerum does not validate your counter-argument and the invocation is only valid if the parallel comparisons drawn by Hank don’t bear truth and merit,

    • Alan Bedenko August 4, 2009 at 4:02 pm #

      Invoking reductio ad Hitlerum does not validate your counter-argument and the invocation is only valid if the parallel comparisons drawn by Hank don’t bear truth and merit

      Hank’s parallels don’t bear truth or merit. As soon as the Republican party is banned, Obama institutes the “kill all Jews” program set forth in his previous autobiography, and starts talking about invading Canada and Mexico for Lebensraum, you let me know all about it and I’ll be right on top of your “Obama is a Nazi” bandwagon.

      Until all of those things manifest themselves, can it with the fucking Hitler comparisons. They add nothing except ignorance and stupidity.

  28. STEEL August 4, 2009 at 4:33 pm #

    You are right Russy, Bush did nothing wrong. Obama screwed everything up in just one day of office.

    When all you do is listen to the right wing radio and fox news fueled fringe ideas and talking points you begin to think that the American public in general believes that kind of stupidity. Oh and here is another tired Obama defense. He WAS born in the USA.

    Claiming that Obama is to blame for the current economy and take overs of the auto industry and the spending required because of the Bush disaster is beyond ridiculous. Call the argument old but the the absolute facts are that the current mess occurred under Bush’s direction.

  29. mike hudson August 4, 2009 at 4:37 pm #

    alan…at the end of the day, the reason i voted for obama and the reason that niagara falls reporter endorsed him was health care. as i’ve explained before, this is an issue that is very close to my heart, or liver, as the case may be. since he took office, he squandered a lot of political capitol on lesser issues. now this is in a lot of trouble. he has disappointed me.

  30. shim August 4, 2009 at 4:46 pm #

    BP….Pfizer’s tool to quash healthcare reform? Nice try. Healthcare “reform” is going to be quashed because it’s too expensive and people have had enough of the Obama “money grab.” Where the hell is the money going to come from for this huge overhaul? Besides these clowns can’t even run the cash for clunkers program and you want them in charge of healthcare??

  31. STEEL August 4, 2009 at 5:37 pm #

    Health care reform is too expensive but we currently spend twice the amount of the next most expensive system while not being able to care for all of the people nor are our results as good as at least 1/2 a dozen other countries. Our current system is what sounds so expensive. How can anyone actually defend what we have as workable? Tell me what is so great about it.

  32. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 6:17 pm #

    @Steel, You have to learn to examine and interpret data. The United States health care system is not ranked 37th.

    The WHO judged a country’s quality of health on life expectancy. But that’s a lousy measure of a health-care system. Many things that cause premature death have nothing do with medical care. We have far more fatal transportation accidents than other countries. That’s not a health-care problem. …

    When you adjust for these “fatal injury” rates, U.S. life expectancy is actually higher than in nearly every other industrialized nation.

    Diet and lack of exercise also bring down average life expectancy.

  33. Kevin J. August 4, 2009 at 6:23 pm #

    Study the Third Reich? Sorry, Hank, but Hermann Goering was Reichsmarschall; Heinrich Himmler, head of the SS, was Reichsfuehrer.

  34. The Humanist August 4, 2009 at 6:36 pm #

    let me see if I follow…..

    Mike in WNY – Fact: the public option will lead to socialized health care…

    Me – Do tell…where is this “fact” verified?

    Mike in WNY – Empirical evidence, dear Humanist, the pattern is well established with previous government “reforms”

    Me – “When you say that the public option will lead to socialized health care, that’s your opinion, not a fact. I think your opinion is full of shit, but you’re welcome to air it. Just don’t insult our intelligence by calling it a “fact” and then dredging out the tired “empirical evidence” line when you can’t name a single Federal program that has led to socialism, in any reasonable definition of the term.”

    Mike in WNY – “You need to learn how to follow logic. My premise is that government programs, once enacted, grow larger…”

    No, your premise was “the public option will lead to socialized health care.” When pressed to prove your premise, you instead change your premise to “government programs, once enacted, grow larger.” Well, gee…..that’s a shocker. Unless the population growth rate zeroes out, of course government programs get larger. What you haven’t proven (and continue to duck) is how government programs getting larger = SOCIALISM AIIIIIIIGH!!!! You cannot point out even one Federal program that evolved into a socialist program.

    You are right that I am incapable of following your Libertarian nonsensical “logic,” nor am I interested in doing so.

  35. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 7:43 pm #

    @Humanist, I’m probably wasting my time since you are admittedly close-minded, but maybe you’ll understand the logic this way.

    if A=B and increasing A=C, then increasing B=C.

    While you are thinking about it, name 10 government programs in existence that are smaller now then they were at inception.

  36. Mike In WNY August 4, 2009 at 7:59 pm #

    The FDA is a good example of a bureaucracy out of control It now regulates 25% of consumer expenditures. It even has its own division of armed agents, established in 2002, running around the country.

  37. Ray August 4, 2009 at 10:33 pm #

    Humanist says “You cannot point out even one Federal program that evolved into a socialist program.”

    I can:
    Social Security
    Medicare
    SCHIP
    The Military
    Americorps
    Congress
    Department of Education
    Iraq
    Afghanistan

    The free market is definitely not involved in any of those programs

  38. Christopher Smith August 4, 2009 at 10:35 pm #

    I think allowing the libertarians to take over every single thread on this blog deters other people from commenting. There is little value in continuing the same argument in every single thread . At this point, I think we’re fairly certain where they stand on every issue. Free markets, Thomas Jefferson quotes, and John Stossel tribute mustaches.

    Whether it’s about cheeseburgers or healthcare, we get the same bleating baloney over and over and over and over. It’s fucking ponderous and it’s exclusionary to the majority of people who read this blog.

    I own this god damned site and you guys are making me not want to come to it. Fuck.

    Here’s a tip to the libertarians, why don’t you guys start identifying candidates to run for office and start changing the world to suit your opinions? That’s what other groups do when they feel the system is working against their interests. Or would you rather sit around at your Ayn Rand reading group and blame the system, the “sheeple”, the government and the alignment of Pluto in the sky for the reasons people have and will continue to reject your ideology at the ballot box?

  39. Mike Walsh August 4, 2009 at 11:37 pm #

    “I think allowing the libertarians to take over every single thread on this blog deters other people from commenting”

    So what do you want? A bunch of people saying “dittos”? You guys aren’t dumb so why do you want a bunch of groupies patting you on the back? That’s all you have other than us and a few republican dissenters.

  40. Jon Splett August 5, 2009 at 12:22 am #

    “So what do you want? A bunch of people saying “dittos”?”

    Isn’t that kind of where we’re at?

    Also, +1 to Chris for a John Stossel moustache joke.

  41. Christopher Smith August 5, 2009 at 12:27 am #

    Having a bunch of automatons repeating the same thing over and over again is not exactly informed discussion. I don’t want agreement from everyone either, that’s boring. However, we used to have varied and robust discussions on this blog and others before the PCD/Freener crowd decided to camp out like a bad cold here. You guys are like internet kudzu..

  42. Jon Splett August 5, 2009 at 12:42 am #

    Also Ray, Congress is not a socialist program.

    Seriously dude. Tell how the market would run CONGRESS better than it already does

  43. Dave Allen August 5, 2009 at 12:47 am #

    Here’s some fuel for the fire… ” How Come CBS Journalists Can’t Recognize Paid Lobbyists When They See Them?” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jane-hamsher/how-come-cbs-journalists_b_250982.html

  44. Mike In WNY August 5, 2009 at 12:50 am #

    I guess the plaintive wail of progressives advocating theft because health care is a right is OK. But, a logical discussion, backed up with evidence, facts, laws of economics and valid inferences is not OK.

    “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
    — Mahatma Gandhi

    Perhaps if people actually responded to us with counter-arguments, the discussion would be more informative. The slurry of insults, ridicule, twisting of words and side-stepping valid points validates the necessity for us to continue.

    If your major criticism is that we repeat ourselves, then we must be saying the right things, otherwise you would refute it. Besides, the number of principles and values that result in optimal solutions is quite finite, the wheel doesn’t always need to be reinvented, nor should it be.

    • Christopher Smith August 5, 2009 at 1:13 am #

      If your major criticism is that we repeat ourselves, then we must be saying the right things, otherwise you would refute it.

      I’ve been arguing with libertarians since college and there is one thing I’ve learned in 20 years of this back-and-forth, there is no point in “refuting” anything you say. You will simply repeat or rephrase the statement or argument to which I provided a rebuttal. It’s circular, aggravating, pointless and a tremendous waste of time.

      Your continued presence here chokes off legitimate debate by adults who live in the real world and discourages people from joining the discussion.

  45. Mike In WNY August 5, 2009 at 12:57 am #

    @Dave Allen, Armey was a freedom advocate long before he had anything to do with lobbying. In fact, being a lobbyist is not a crime and some of them are even correct. Krugman makes his living lobbying for socialism and has been wrong much more often than right regarding what has gone wrong with the economy and why.

  46. Russell August 5, 2009 at 8:47 am #

    STEEL, please point out where I said that Bush did no wrong. As usual, you have to misrepresent me in order to argue with me. I merely said Obama has to take responsibility for his mistakes and the Bush excuse has gotten old. It’s not a right-wing statement. Look at Gallup or any other polling data. Obama is slipping a whole lot and most of the losses are among moderates and independents. He may have inherited a mess, but people, and not just those on the right-wing, are not happy with his plans and actions to clean it up.

  47. shim August 5, 2009 at 10:04 am #

    Steel…As to your earlier comments “How can anyone defend what we have is workable” “tell me what’s so great about it”. While I’m not going to say that it is great…the fact remains that approx 88% of Americans have some sort of health insurance (U. S. census report). Granted it’s not perfect and granted there are cost issues for many of those 88% . While I agree that we need to do something to make it better for all, a costly government run multi billion dollar overhaul of the entire healthcare system on behalf of the other 12% is crazy!

  48. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 10:16 am #

    Russy,

    What mistakes has Obama made?

    And saying the “Bush excuse has gotten old” is the same thing as saying he has done nothing wrong. Its not like Bush just spilled alittle coffee and the someone wiped it up a few minutes later. Lets get real here! The Bush administration was a disaster for this country and it will take many years to recover from it.

    And shim – its not for the 12% – you have been deluded into thinking that nothing bad can happen to you under our current system. The fact is that anyone who is not very wealthy is vulnerable to being financially crushed by the current system weather you are insured or not, Most in this country are one pink slip away form not having coverage! Pur system by the way is far far far more expensive than any system in the world even those that are run by government. Exactly what is there to defend about what we currently have. Ask any Brit or Canadian if they would trade for our system and you will find that a vast majority would not. That tells you something.

  49. shim August 5, 2009 at 10:58 am #

    Steel…I guess it depends on what brit or canadian you talk to because several of the canadiens that I spoke to said they would prefer our system hands down. I haven’t been deluded into anything.Our system is certainly not perfect and things need to be addressed but a complete multi billion dollar overhaul and government run healthcare system is not the way to go!

  50. Russell August 5, 2009 at 11:32 am #

    STEEL, saying the excuse has gotten old has nothing at all to do with saying Bush did no wrong. That doesn’t even make sense. It means that people don’t care about that anymore. Their concern is what is Obama going to do about the problems he inherited.

    And I know it’s difficult for you to accept, but even the Obama adminstration has admitted they’ve made mistakes. Most notably, about how they approached the economy and underestimated the problems. According to many elected Democrats, it was a mistake for him to order the closing of Guantanamo without having a plan in place for the handling of the detainees held there. I’m sure if you thought for one second you could probably come up with some on your own. I’d hate to burst your bubble, but he is not perfect and infallible. His approval ratings have slipped quite a lot over the past month. If that’s not due to mistakes he’s made, then what is it?

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 11:59 am #

      The Obama administration admits it’s made mistakes? How refreshing.

  51. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 11:41 am #

    Russ,

    I have never claimed him to be perfect. You make it out as if he is a complete disaster which is far from the truth. The issues you point out as mistakes are pretty minor in comparison to the crap Bush left behind for him to clean up.

    Shim, Why is a government run system not the way to go. It has proven successful throughout the rest of the industrial world while ours has proven only to be the most expensive in the world while not even covering everyone. What is so good about our current system. To me it looks like giant FAIL

  52. Ray August 5, 2009 at 12:07 pm #

    Jon, Congress has all the signs of being a socialist institution;Confiscation of wealth and redistribution, Bailing out industries and financial institutions, nationalizing financial institutions, running automobile manufacturers (GM – Government Motors), healthcare and education entitlements and mandates, corporate welfare, agricultural subsidies and mandates, rampant public debt creation to prop up its failed programs and to create new ones ect…

    The only market forces that would want to run congress are the anti-capitalist forces. Seekers of monopoly and plunder.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 12:14 pm #

      Ray:

      You know, I really am tiring of my comment section becoming the go-to place for idiotic notions like privatization of our national government or whatever other point you were trying to make there. Seriously. Go peddle crazy on Ostrowski’s site. I’m sure there are some Thomas Jefferson quotes you can cherry-pick or Ludwig von Mises tomes you can link to over there. Thanks so much.

  53. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 12:32 pm #

    Russ,

    I have never claimed Obama to be infallible. On the contrary it is refreshing to have a president who can admit a mistake and change course. Contrast this to Bush who who when asked could not think of one mistake he had made even in the face of so many obvious huge blunders.

    Shim,

    I have seen poles which show the overwhelming support of Canadians for their system. Why should we not have government run health care? It has already been proven to work in the rest of the industrialized world at half the cost we currently spend while covering everyone. Who can tell me what is so good about our current system? It is too expensive, It is filled with waste and inefficiency, it does not provide choice, it does not cover all people and it leaves life and death decisions in the hands of corporate bureaucrats rather than with doctors. What is so good about our current system?

  54. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 12:37 pm #

    Oh well double posts. Takes a while for stuff to show up I guess

  55. Mike In WNY August 5, 2009 at 1:02 pm #

    I’ve been arguing with libertarians since college and there is one thing I’ve learned in 20 years of this back-and-forth, there is no point in “refuting” anything you say. You will simply repeat or rephrase the statement or argument to which I provided a rebuttal. It’s circular, aggravating, pointless and a tremendous waste of time.

    That is total BS and a cop-out. Perhaps you should rename your venture Western New York Marginalizing dot NET, your attitude indicates that you are becoming just as slanted as some other media outlets. You shouldn’t offer viewpoints if you can’t take counter-viewpoints without getting all bent out of shape.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 1:36 pm #

      That is total BS and a cop-out. Perhaps you should rename your venture Western New York Marginalizing dot NET, your attitude indicates that you are becoming just as slanted as some other media outlets. You shouldn’t offer viewpoints if you can’t take counter-viewpoints without getting all bent out of shape.

      No one gets “bent out of shape” at the Ostrowski site, where you guys all try to out-Mises each other.

  56. Russell August 5, 2009 at 1:06 pm #

    STEEL, I never said or implied he was a complete disaster, but you just cannot post without misrepresenting what I say. Try thinking for yourself, rather than rewording what BP says. And be careful with your Bush contrast because at this point in the administration Bush was more popular than Obama is now and made fewer mistakes.

  57. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 1:36 pm #

    At this point in the Bush admin he proceeded to ignore every bit of evidence presented pointing to 9/11!

    I really don’t care about popularity polls. I am interested in having an engaged intelligent and thoughtful person as our president. That is what we currently have. As far as me being a BP ditto head…I am sure you just made him spit out his coffee laughing over that possibility.

  58. Russell August 5, 2009 at 2:54 pm #

    So it’s less important that he gets things right and follows the will of the people than it is that he seems intelligent, thoughtful and engaged? Okay.

    And I’m sure the “refreshing” comment 15 minutes after BP said it was pure coincidence.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 3:18 pm #

      So it’s less important that he gets things right and follows the will of the people than it is that he seems intelligent, thoughtful and engaged? Okay.

      1. Steel didn’t say Obama “seem[ed]” anything. he said, “I am interested in having an engaged intelligent and thoughtful person as our president”. IOW, Obama is engaged, intelligent, and thoughtful. Not “seems“. Fantastically executed try, though.

      2. In my experience, people who are engaged, intelligent, and thoughtful “get things right” more often than people who are not engaged, intelligent, or thoughtful.

  59. shim August 5, 2009 at 3:02 pm #

    Alan..”89% approve of their healthcare…your proving my point. There are problems with the system that need fixing but a vast majority of the people are satisfied with their current healthcare.The Kaiser study also goes on to mention that of the approximately 11% of the uninsured in this country over half of them are uninsured BY CHOICE meaning that roughly 5-6% of the people would like healthcare and do not have it. With facts like that tell me why we need a multi billion dollar government run total overhaul of the healthcare plan? Cost need to be cut and another issue that nobody is addressing is tort reform. True reform would bring sky rocketing insurance cost down significantly….but that’s an argument for another day…

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 3:16 pm #

      Yes. 89% of people approve of their healthcare. We’re not discussing reform of healthcare. We don’t need more efficient ways to do MRI scans or externally fixate fractures. We’re discussing reform of our inefficient, anti-consumer health insurance system in this country.

      What, shim, is the percentage of people who love their health insurer? Why do only 44% of Americans approve of our underlying system. So, yeah. You’ve missed the point completely.

  60. Russell August 5, 2009 at 4:11 pm #

    I’m not sure how you measure ‘engaged’, but generally a 10 to 20 percentage drop in support is not a strong sign of it. If you know his IQ, especially in contrast to Bush’s, then we can use “is” rather than “seems”. As it stands, I think “seems” is more appropriate.

    It is cute to see you got over your coffee spitting in time to run to the rescue of your little parrot, though.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 4:25 pm #

      You can denigrate him as a “parrot”, if it makes you feel like a big man, but the fact remains that you misquoted him in a feeble effort to score a point, and you failed. You can use “seems” all you want. Steel didn’t.

      In other words, you lose. You don’t have to be a fucking dick about it.

  61. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 4:33 pm #

    I believe that Obama is doing exactly what he said he would when he was elected by a large majority of the voters. By that measure he is doing the will of the people. Polls show him to be extremely popular. He is intelligent. He is engaged. He is thoughtful.

  62. shim August 5, 2009 at 4:35 pm #

    Alan…I haven’t missed the point at all. 89% are satisfied with their healthcare and according to Kaiser Foundation studies 44% are upset with the system mostly because they BELIEVE millions of people are going untreated. That’s obviously not the case.

  63. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 6:14 pm #

    The care we get is not the issue. It is the access to it that is a problem in this country. Lose your job lose your access. If you are not worried about that then you are kidding yourself about your health and financial well being. What good is the best health care if you can’t afford it? 44% are upset with the system because they realize how close they can be to financial ruin, especially in this economy. Again, what is so great about our system? Most expensive , least number covered, profit driven care decisions. No industrialized democracy in the world would trade their system for ours. But we sit sucking in all the garbage about socialism fed to us by the right, the same wing as the Birthers

  64. Mike Walsh August 5, 2009 at 7:28 pm #

    “It is the access to it that is a problem in this country.”

    Nobody is denied critical care in this nation. No hospital can refuse treatment. The elderly get medicare and the poor get medicaid.

    Who exactly keeps whining about this and forcing it into a political issue? I see media and politicians searching high and low for an anomaly and cherry picking somebody who MAY have fallen through the cracks and making a big story out of it. If the situation was so dire we’d see people in the streets with weapons. I don’t see that. What I do see is do-gooders, busybodies, world-changers and a ton of people from the something-for-nothing crowd cheering this on.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 9:36 pm #

      Nobody is denied critical care in this nation. No hospital can refuse treatment. The elderly get medicare and the poor get medicaid.

      And the waitress who served you dinner last weekend gets nothing, makes too much to qualify for medicaid, can’t afford and doesn’t get health insurance, and may find out tomorrow that she has a lump in her breast. You think she can waltz into any hospital with a non-emergent problem and get free treatment? And then get a battery of chemo and radiation or Tamoxifen? Really, you think they can just stroll on into Roswell and say, “whom do I see about some chemo?” Get real.

  65. Mike Walsh August 5, 2009 at 10:05 pm #

    “And the waitress who served you dinner last weekend gets nothing, makes too much to qualify for medicaid, can’t afford and doesn’t get health insurance,”

    So why doesn’t the government just adjust income and eligibility guidelines for medicaid instead of this thousand page horseshit? You reduce the argument to one issue: people who can’t afford it will get help. If that’s what the debate is allegedly all about(which most claim), that’s a simple fix which would be much easier to sell. Bringing some troops home and cutting off payments to a few dictators should cover it.

    • Alan Bedenko August 5, 2009 at 10:08 pm #

      Better yet, expand Medicare to everyone. It’s uniform across the country, is efficient and well-regarded by physicians and patients.

  66. shim August 5, 2009 at 10:16 pm #

    Mike…I couldn’t have said it better myself! As I’ve been saying all along it’s not perfect so let’s adjust some things to make it easier for some to get coverage. That’s much easier done and makes much more sense than overhauling an entire system,to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars when 89% are happy with the coverage they have!

  67. Ben McD August 5, 2009 at 11:35 pm #

    “And the waitress who served you dinner last weekend gets nothing, makes too much to qualify for medicaid, can’t afford and doesn’t get health insurance, and may find out tomorrow that she has a lump in her breast.”

    What is the annual number of patients who die because they were denied treatment in life threatening situations for this demographic?

  68. STEEL August 5, 2009 at 11:48 pm #

    Get cancer without any coverage and you will not get treatment without selling everything you have and then you will not get your treatment at the top private hospitals you will be sent to places like ECMC where the county tax payers will pay for a rudimentary treatment course. Of course ECMC was set up as a government run hospital to take care of the people that private industry will not cover. Oh, You will not get a transplant if you have no coverage. You don’t treat these kind of things in the emergency room. but I do like the odd defense of our private system by noting that we have medicare. Isn’t medicare the dreaded socialist system no one supposedly wants – oh except for the people who already have it – the very same people the private systme dumped onto the government.

  69. Mike Walsh August 6, 2009 at 12:19 am #

    “What is the annual number of patients who die because they were denied treatment in life threatening situations for this demographic?”

    Probably about the same as die from second hand smoke….

  70. Mike Walsh August 6, 2009 at 12:22 am #

    @STEAL: You make no sense other than you want something for nothing…that’s been quite clear for some time…

  71. Russell August 6, 2009 at 8:11 am #

    STEEL, polls do not show him to be extremely popular. Polls show him to be about average for a president at this point in his term and behind where Bush was. Polls also show him dropping drastically from where he was when he took office. That is not a sign of doing the will of the people. That is a sign of going against the will of the people.

    BP, I never quoted STEEL anywhere. I may have paraphrased him, but I used my own wording and explained why. That’s how you paraphrase. It’s not a loss, but I didn’t know you keep score. I called him a parrot because he mimicked your words minutes after you posted them. He implied you two don’t get along all that well with the spitting coffee comment, but then you rush to his defense as if you’re his protector. I have no idea why you’re so sensitive about anything pertaining to STEEL. Or is it because you just cannot pass up an opportunity to try to attack me, yet I’m the one who only picks fights with you, eh?

    As far as Obama being engaged, thoughtful and intelligent, it seems that some are questioning that. The whole health care issue is a good illustration. His level of engagement has been called into question because he left the entire thing up to Congress. Not only did the White House not involve itself in the drafting of the legislation, which is customary for an issue near and dear to the president, but he’s done little to work out differences between the two houses and within his party. You’ve even questioned his level of engagement, wondering if he’s just waiting for things to fully pan out in Congress. As far as thoughtful, he was already chastised a couple times by his party for not thinking things through. The lack of a Guantanamo closing plan is a good example of that. And his intelligence has been questioned by those who point out that he never goes off teleprompter. He sticks very closely to prepared, rehearsed comments. Anyone can be intelligent with a good writer that you never stray from.

  72. shim August 6, 2009 at 8:53 am #

    Thoughtful? Intelligent? The man is an empty suit……

  73. STEEL August 6, 2009 at 10:11 am #

    Yep empty suit. Lets get Bush back in there. You guys had no problem with him as I recall.

    Anyway getting back to health care I have asked a couple times for someone to explain what is so great about our current health insurance system. Still no response.

  74. Russell August 6, 2009 at 10:52 am #

    STEEL, I haven’t heard any credible proposals to fundamentally change the current health insurance system. They’re just working on a way to offer an affordable, government option to the uninsured. Obama and the Democrats are not re-creating the current system or inventing a new system, so perhaps you should address that question to them.

  75. STEEL August 6, 2009 at 12:37 pm #

    Russ, That is because of the huge industry funded campaign against any meaningful reform. That aside, many have been saying how glorious our current system is and that there is no need to change. Please tell me what is so great about the current private system.

    As for credible proposals there are highly successful models for insurance reform throughout the industrialized world. The insurance and big drug lobby has been very good a quashing and discussion of the use of those models for our own system. there is no need to invent a new system. There are proven systems in operation.

    So please give me all the great attributes of our current system.

  76. Russell August 6, 2009 at 12:50 pm #

    There are plenty of other systems out there, but none of them are flawless. Even so, none of them have been proposed or introduced in a bill in Congress, so there are no credible proposals on the table here.

    I don’t think many people are saying that our insurance system is glorious, just that our health care system overall is. That’s backed up by how much innovation has originated in our system. It is still, by far, the world leader in patents and developments in drugs, treatments and technology. In that sense, it is the world leader and no one comes close. Many believe the fact that it is primarily a private system contributes to that. So in the end, there is no proven system in the world that parallels what the US would need, one that provides insurance for 300 million people, while keeping costs and taxes low, without major limits on services or doctors, and promotes this level of innovation.

    Obama never proposed the level of reform you are promoting. If what you’re saying is true, does it follow that Obama is also bought and paid for by the lobby? We already know that the Democrats have received much more money from them than Republicans have in recent years. Humanist supplied that data about a month or so ago.

  77. shim August 6, 2009 at 1:48 pm #

    Steel…I’ve said all along the system is not perfect…but if 89% are happy with their coverage SOMETHING must be ok with it! Why don’t you ask one of them. Walsh is right…you’re just looking for something for nothing. You’ve totally bought right in to the 100% class warfare mentality that permeates the Obama Administration and the liberal Democrats in Congress…and yes the man is an empty suit…

    • Alan Bedenko August 6, 2009 at 1:56 pm #

      89% said they were happy with their healthcare. Not their coverage. You doctor is not your insurance company. Please stop misstating it, as I’ve corrected you twice now.

  78. STEEL August 6, 2009 at 2:01 pm #

    Actually Obama has advocated for a European one pay system in the past but he realizes that is would never fly in this country because of the huge medical lobby. Just look at how they are foaming at the mouth over him actually having suggested something like that in the past. Just because a proven successful has not been proposed here does not make our system good or even reasonable. As far as your claim that no one is calling our system glorious you are right. The right wing has actually been calling our system the “best” system in the world. I will give you that.

    Post the patent figures so we can discuss further. It should be noted to the socialist fear mongers that a lot of medical research is funded by the government.

  79. STEEL August 6, 2009 at 2:03 pm #

    No shim, I have bought into the ” My health should not depend on my ability to pay for it” mentality.

  80. Jon Splett August 6, 2009 at 2:16 pm #

    “Actually Obama has advocated for a European one pay system in the past but he realizes that is would never fly in this country because of the huge medical lobby.”

    Well isn’t this kind of an example of a giant steaming pile of FAIL on Obama’s part? He’s got a democratic majority in both houses, he’s got public support and he’s got a republican party in shambles offering no alternative. The political landscape will NEVER be this advantageous to pushing a single payer plan as it is right now. Instead. he’s let blue dog democrats fuck the whole party up to keep health lobby money flowing.

    The plan congress is about to push through sucks. Maybe if the administration could stop worrying about a bunch of angry, privileged white guys who don’t want to pay taxes calling them socialist and put the needs of the people to the forefront, Obama would do the right thing and effectively dismantle the health insurance industry that created this clusterfuck of greed. It’s a god damn shame Obama isn’t a socialist because a socialist would put forth a real public health plan instead of an insurance company bailout.

    At this point, no matter who wins, we all lose.

  81. Russell August 6, 2009 at 3:52 pm #

    STEEL, here’s a table showing medical patents by country of origin in the US. It shows that almost 50% of all medical patents approved for use in the US originate in the US. The next closest is Japan at about 8%. Don’t get overheated becaue it’s just US patents because under WTO agreements, we are not a closed system. Any country/company can apply for patents in the US and enter our market and most do since we are among the most lucrative medical market in the world. http://www.crisisstates.com/download/others/shadlen(table2).pdf

    As far as your best vs. glorious argument with yourself, I’m not sure anyone anywhere generally refers to their health care system as glorious, regardless of who’s funding it. I know many on the right refer to our system as the best. It depends on what you are considering when making that judgement. I know it’s not about the insurance aspect, like you keep throwing in. It has more to do with quality, like that table demonstrates.

    As far as what Obama can and cannot accomplish regarding these reforms, I think Jon spelled it out well for you.

  82. Ethan August 6, 2009 at 3:55 pm #

    You tell ’em, Jon. Dude wants a second term, he better grow a pair and hop to it.

  83. STEEL August 7, 2009 at 11:10 pm #

    Ok Russ,

    I looked at the table and it is very impressive. However, you failed to show cause and effect and neglected several other factors. For instance, the United States is the 3rd or 4th most populous country on the planet – of course it will have more patents. On a per capita basis little war torn Israel is not that far behind the US. The US is also the richest country on the planet. That means there is a lot of money available for research. The US also has the best university system on the planet (many of the best research universities are public by the way). You also glossed over the fact that both Europe and Japan have there own patent offices. Patents are not often filed in multiple patent offices especially if treaties make it unnecessary.

    You might also note that 6 of the top 10 big pharma companies are not American. Also one of the most socialist countries in Europe Switzerland – tiny little Switzerland – has 2 of the top 7 biggest drug companies.

  84. Russell August 10, 2009 at 9:57 am #

    STEEL, noting that the top 6 pharma companies are not American furthers my point. If we have only 4 of the top 10 companies, but disproportionately more patents, that means we are much more innovative.

    On your point about Israel, no they do not have similar numbers per capita. If you look at their population reported in the World Factbook, they have 0.039 patents per 1,000 citizens while the US has 0.059. That’s 66% more.

    Your point about the US having more money and more universities furthers the point against socialism and socialized systems, so thanks for that. The rest is continued on BP’s latest post about this issue if you care to continue there.

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