There will be a lawsuit over the Bass Pro plan before anyone’s really had a chance to read the deal, and because … well, why not?
They say the tackle and hunting store — and four multitiered parking ramps to be built within one block of the site — will irrevocably alter the historic site’s authenticity and pedestrian-friendly ambience.
Why didn’t they sue the city for the abomination of gravel and weeds that’s been on that historic site for the past half-century? Objectively, these groups prefer that to the Canal Side plan, which is as authentic as the Ann Taylor in Quincy Market or the J Crew in South Street Seaport. It’s 2007. What shall we do, recruit some blacksmiths and sailmakers?
“There’s nothing wrong with putting Bass Pro on the water, but it is essentially a large suburban store being plopped down on the most historic urban site in the city,†said Richard Lippes, board member of the Preservation Coalition of Erie County.
Lippes makes it seem as if they’ll be airlifting the Walden Galleria onto the waterfront, which anyone who’s seen the plans can tell you is not the case.
One business executive said planned parking spaces — a 300-car ramp at Erie Canal Harbor, 500-car parking ramps on the nearby Webster and Donovan blocks, and a 1,000- car ramp on the site of Memorial Auditorium — were too close to the site.
“Parking structures are death to an urban landscape,†he said. “There is no vibrancy, no street activity, no visual appeal. It is like driving a stake through the heart of downtown.â€
Oh, sweet Jesus. If the parking is underground, it’s not a death stake. If the parking is made to be attractive, it’s not a death stake. If the parking is done as part of a comprehensive and well-thought-out plan, it’s a necessary evil, not a death stake.
The quickest way to a hipster’s heart is to decry parking. Yet even the new urbanists recognize the need for parking. They just place it a bit out of sight.
If Canal Side is the “heart of downtown”, I’d remind people that this particular bit of downtown has been dead for many decades. You cannot kill that which is already dead.
Scot Fisher, president of Righteous Babe Records and one of the activists who successfully fought for a history-based plan, expressed anger that the agreement already in place was being usurped.
“Who appointed Larry Quinn and Mindy Rich to represent the community? Where are our elected officials?†Fisher said. “What’s happened is profoundly insulting to the people of Buffalo and Western New York, and we will fight this.â€
A business leader also expressed disapproval.
“It wasn’t an inclusive process,†he said. “There was no involvement of organizations like the [Buffalo Niagara] Convention and Visitors Bureau, and Buffalo Place.â€
Who appointed Scot Fisher to represent the community? Who’s the “community”, anyway?
I don’t think it’s insulting. As for where the “elected officials” were, they were all there at the announcement – Giambra, Higgins, Brown were all present, and two of them are members of the ECHDC.
“People don’t want Disneyland, they want authentic history, and that is where we were headed with this site before Bass Pro landed there,†said the downtown business leader who requested anonymity.
So, what do we put there? A museum? The aforementioned blacksmith? A fishmonger? Seriously, what sort of authenticity are we talking about? There is nothing there. Anything that gets built is, at best, a replica of a part of town that used to be a bustling commercial area.
Mark Goldman, author of the newly published “City on the Edge: Buffalo, New York,†also expressed dissatisfaction with what he considers a doomed “silver bullet†solution.
“I don’t think we should sell off our waterfront to big-box retailers. It doesn’t make any sense. Plus, from my perspective it’s too highly leveraged with [$25 million] of public money.â€
Well, “selling off” the waterfront (not true) to Bass Pro makes loads of sense. So far, the only rational critique in the entire article is that dealing with the public money, and I think that should be the subject of heated debate. The wholesale dismissal of this entire project for its lack of “authenticity” or subjective whinging about its design or the inclusivity of the process is ludicrous.
But Quinn said he has studied successful waterfronts in Chicago, Boston and elsewhere, and believes the proposal — which he said needs “refinement†— can make Canal Side a premiere destination attraction.
The agreement calls for Bass Pro to receive $25 million for construction costs, along with free rent and no real estate taxes. In return it must pay $300,000 to support activities and cleanup for the entire site.
Quinn defended the amount, saying it would cost Bass Pro “a fortune†to develop the company’s most challenging and unusual building.
He also expects some to fiercely oppose it.
Tim Tielman of the Campaign for Greater Buffalo said he’ll be among those doing so.
“This is an absolutely redmeat issue for us,†Tielman said, “and I can’t believe they have the temerity to impose something like this on that site.â€
I think it’s a shame that a reproduction of a historical commercial area in what is now weeds and gravel is the subject of such vehement, practically knee-jerk opposition. No rational discussion needed. Just conclusory bitching and some orders to show cause.
Prediction? The lawsuits fail, but they drain so much money from the plan that they’ll have to scrap the pretty replica of the 19th century buildings and we’ll get a big box after all. How’d that be for karmic irony?
The Buffalo Record 
This is a plan that can work. The knee jerk lawsuits almost seem like pathetic grabs at 15 minutes of fame. Fisher, Tielman, and Lippes do not speak for me.If the Banana Brigade is ever called out on this one, it would be appropriate.
But if they win their lawsuits, I want the fishmonger job.
What a waste of money……….preservationists seem to have alot of cash lying around that could be better spent on … preservation. Preservation of neighborhoods, historic existing structures, adaptive reuse, and their own properties they allow to waste away. These are the same guys who hoot and holler AFTER a demolition. why don’t they use the same cash to actually preserve soemthing that still exists? why not the Central Terminal, ooops, not attractive enough…why not buildings in downtown that paladino and friends allowed to fall aprt for the past 20 years….oooops, not under the wrecking ball yet…why not an education program for school kids on preservation and adaptive resue?…..ooops, not their kids so why even try………………Bullshit artisits, each and everyone of them, especially Tim the Tool Tielman.
Yeah and one more thing – BOTH businessmen wanted anonymity? What are they made of, Jello? How did they become businessmen without a backbone and in charge enough to stand up for what they believe in by saying who they are? Is one of them Scot Fisher?
Great post. I think there are segments of our population that derive psychic benefit in our downtrodden mediocrity.
Not only is there too much “yooonyon-ism” in the Barf, but y’all have got WAAAAY too many LOOO-YAHS! They’re like vultures. A dying area like Barfallo is the perfect place for them. Litigation around every corner for almost ANY stupid reason, with more to come, no doubt for decades. And the taxpayer (whose either too stupid, or too poor to leave) pays all for all.
Sorry for the previous post…accidentally messed up my name
Not only is there too much “yooonyon-ism†in the Barf, but y’all have got
WAAAAY too many LOOO-YAHS! They’re like vultures. A dying area like Barfallo is the perfect place for them. Litigation around every corner for almost ANY stupid reason, with more to come, no doubt for decades. And the taxpayer (whose either too stupid, or too poor to leave) pays all for all.
It will only end when someone counter sues big time.
well said alan, and tetse’s on the right track about countersuing for malicious prosecution. it seems to me that if we’re first in anything here it’s frivolous lawsuits. and like everything else, it’s even worse in niagara falls.
I love Goldman. We need more of him. He spoke at LB last month and I think he’s captivating – whether you agree with him or not. It’s nice that someone not only has an opinion, but can defend that opinion, again, whether it is in line with your own thoughts or if you think he’s way off. He’s just freakin’ passionate. I dig it.
This is really not a preservation issue, as I see it. The former Erie Canal site is all but gone and has to be totally rebuilt. We don’t need a commercial wharf any more, do we? We do need a large outdoors store on the waterfront. One with million$ of marketing dollars to expand our already HUGE sport fishing market. This just makes good business sense.
The new Bass Pro will be built circa 1890’s flavor, which is a major concession is store brand identity for them.
Let’s show the rest of the coutnry that we are a city that supports free market enterprise and welcomes new development. Build the damned thing already!
I’m an ardent preservationist, but I see the logic in the Bass Pro deal for the waterfront. I was thrilled to see at least it would be a “replica” of some old canalside building.
People need to get a grip! We need something in Buffalo . . . and on the waterfont. If Bass Pro commits, others will follow. And yes, it may be Disneyesque. So what, if it draws visitors? And their money.
I just spent a week traveling through the Piedmont area of Virginia and noted how many of the towns have successfully melded the old with the new. A lot of reuse of old buildings in towns’ central business core. It works.
And as many have pointed out, there’s nothing- zip-nada on the waterfront now. I wonder how many of these folks who cry and moan over strict adherence to preservation guidelines, etc. have actually traveled. Quincy Market, Fisherman’s Wharf, Baltimore, Cleveland waterfronts….for pete’s sake, Erie PA! …have or are reviving.
Come on Buffalo, let’s get going….please in my lifetime!
“It lacks pedestrian ambiance”…You want pedestrian ambiance?? Walk up Main St that was closed to traffic to produce pedestrian ambiance. It is really pedestrian friendly..so friendly you can dodge the tumbleweeds blowing around the wide open airy walkways..what a joke!! As for “who elected Quinn!!” Wake up Scot!! Quinn has the only proven development record. He seems to get things done. For pete’s sake..what is the downside gravel and weeds?? An empty building after Bass Pro pulls out?? Put an escrow clause in the agreement requiring them to return the footprint back to gravel and weeds when they leave. STOP TALKING NOW AND BUILD IT!!
While it seems like a pain in the ass to be suing everytime something looks like it going to get done… considering how many times we’ve been screwed, I’d rather have a thorough legal review. Hopefully expedited, but anyone who is going to trust the people involved in this deal is stupid and naive. Sorry. It does sound like an OK plan, though it reminds me of Baltimore’s harbor, which isn’t much to write home about, with the exception of a fascinating aquarium (unless you want to write about box stores available in Amherst).
Who Appointed Quinn? George Pataki I believe…why do you ask?
Isn’t he thy guy who was in charge of the plans for the only two functional things in that corner of the city, – HSBC Arena and the Buffalo Sabres?
And for attractive parking, Quinn has already proven he can hide a ramp pretty good – look at HSBC Arena – the ramp is off to the side, dark brick to blend in with the surroundings, and – due to good design – the focus of the eye looking at the Arena is the Arena itself, not the ramp.
Who funds such frivolity?
This happens every time. The insiders who run everything around here (badly) give the public the impression that a major deal has been finalized. Then, when anyone asks a question, they are called obstructionists. What are we obstructing? There is no deal! There’s talk about a possible deal. So others want to join the conversation. Good, because the elites who have made major decisions in the last 50 years did a really bad job.
HSBC Arena defaulted on its mortgage, didn’t it? And failed to deliver on its promise to turn downtown around.
When you want it bad, you’ll get it bad. This all-of-a-sudden plan smells a lot like the brilliant bullshit that accompanied the Buffalo Casino plans. Are we really that desperate that we’ll take anything that looks shiny and new?
The Aud is going to be demolished as part of this new plan anyway – so why can’t Bass Pro put their store there? To hell with Bass Pro if they can’t make it work on the Aud site, particularly with the shitload of subsidies and tax abatements that have been part of the Bass Pro plan from the start. When their tax abatement runs out, they’ll leave and we’ll have a big, stupid empty useless building right on the water.
A lot of people, particularly those from the Preservation Coalition, fought to make sure that the real commercial slip was excavated and that the Erie Canal terminus retain historical integrity when the state wanted to build a “replica”. The mantra of “build anything new and it will be better than what’s there” really neglects the fact that we do have options.
BP, To characterize opposition to this new plan as “knee-jerk” is truly uninformed bullshit. To me, the new plan sounds more like “knee-jerk” ideas designed to take advantage of the “build something, please” attitude that so many people share – just look at the comments to your post(s) on this subject.
You write, “Who appointed Scot Fisher to represent the community? Who’s the “communityâ€, anyway? What do you mean, BP? I guess public input on development plans is something you find tedious and unproductive. I know you well enough to know you don’t believe that. How much real public discussion or public engagement did Brown, Higgins or Giambra offer before this plan was offered fully hatched? Is everyone expected to just gobble this up? Fisher, Tielman, Goldman and many others aren’t so easily convinced. I am glad that they out there fighting for something that might make sense now and for the long term – before we Benderson-ize the living shit out of important sections of our city.
(By the way, the Redevelopment of the Church on Delaware would not have happened without Fisher, and without his input , we probably would have had a poured-concrete trench as the “historic” Erie Canal Terminus.)
Still, something smells very funky with this plan, and all the shiny cartoon pictures of a brand-new-hurry-up-let’s-build-it-waterfront fail to convince me otherwise. Just look at all the blue water and sunshine, and the cool Stonehenge thingies! I really think the whole scheme might be painted just a bit too rosey.
Idea 1: Plan it, zone it, build infrastructure, and let the market play its part. (Buffalo Pundit, at one time, actually thought this approach to development made sense)
Idea 2: Silver Bullet (Actually we won’t need another “Silver Bullet”, since the City will enter a new Golden once the New Casino is opened.)
Also, when do we get to vote to re-elect Larry Quinn, Mindy Rich, et.al.?
Pundit, you are right on. And I just want to add that these “preservationists” are never to be seen in the historic areas of the “East Side”. Tons of history there, from the Underground Railroad, the Niagara Movement which led to the NAACP, the huge Polish and German immigrant communities, and more. I guess that area and those histories are just not as historically significant as the empty lot where DeWitt Clinton scooped up some Lake Erie in a bucket, so they don’t matter.
As for having a “public process” to hash out what the community wants, I say we get started on that as soon as we finish up the really efficient and impressive public process for building a new Peace Bridge/Twin Span/Signature Span.
Jim-
That’s why we have different “elites” now – Higgins, Larry Quinn, Brown…these are hardly old time establishment figures.
HSBC defaulted as part of the Adelphia scandal.
Ten year old HSBC Arena was designed to turn downtown around in conjunction with a waterfront redevelopment plan – look at the beautiful design of the right side of the building. Its been waiting for a partner project for ten years.
And by the way, downtown *has* been turning around, starting about, oh, say, ten years ago with the revitalization of Chippewa. Hmm.
who do you think nurtured these “new elites” and brought them to the forefront? the old ones. as for quinn, brown or higgins not being part of the old establishment…. HAH.
We do have options. But over the past 50 years, the option that was opted for was to do nothing. What ought to be in that location is something similar to Quincy Market or South Street Seaport. This plan does that. Can it be tweaked? Sure. But this is what that location ought to have. The people in the article talk about “authenticity” without defining it. Probably because it’s an empty word that is shorthand for “I don’t like retail there.”
The Bass Pro issue has been on the people’s agenda now for half a decade. Not once did any of these people or groups step up to say, “this is what ought to be built there”, or “this is how we’d like to see the area around a Bass Pro look”. All of a sudden, there’s a mockup and Tim Tielman calls it an abomination.
Fisher’s opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else’s opinion. He doesn’t get extra say because he’s affiliated with Ani DiFranco and the Church. If there’s to be a public discussion about it, that’s great. But I don’t dig it when people step up to basically claim speaking rights for the “community”.
What have they said, except that it’s not “authentic” enough? WTF is that supposed to mean? If that’s all they’ve got, they don’t have much.
The Redevelopment of the Church – a private entity – would not have happened without an influx of public dollars and some tax incentive from the Feds and ECIDA. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Just something to consider.
Maybe so. But what I’m complaining about isn’t that people should vet the project (in fact, I say right in my piece that the public money, particularly, is something that should be vehemently debated). What I don’t like is that the only real point anyone’s made besides that has to do with “authenticity”, which in this instance means nothing.
Still do, especially for the outer harbor. But this is downtown Buffalo. I don’t have a problem with a private developer using its experience and resources to help populate a shopping destination in an area that ought to be a shopping destination.
I don’t think limiting this to those two choices is all that is possible. I don’t see Bass Pro as a silver bullet – I see it as an attractive anchor for a privately developed downtown outdoor shopping district that might actually work to bring shoppers in from the suburbs for something more unique and picturesque than the Galleria, as well as be a draw for visitors to the Falls and the wineries who don’t bother to come to Buffalo right now.
If this project doesn’t go you can pretty much turn out the lights on this area. It will show that the price of doing business in Buffalo is not worth it.
I’m going to get a little crass here, but if this does die I hope Tim Tielman and all the other so-called preservationists aren’t surprised when Rick Snowden opens up his whore house on the waterfront. Hey, it would be historically correct and in the end that is what they want right. Add some greenspace and the Riverkeepers will be happy and the “green” will go well with the return of the red light district don’t you think 😉
I just about had it with many here. I don’t plan on leaving, but I am about to throw in the towel. Buffalowatchdog said it best last year: “Buffalo – the Place of Constant Opposition.”
One final thing to say, to those who get mad that others are making the decisions – RUN FOR ELECTIVE OFFICE!!
Stop criticizing the decisionmakers and become one yourself.
Let’s play make-believe…If there was a public input process that allowed every adult in the (city? county? region?) to review this proposal and then vote — yes or no — and the majority voted “yes,” would Tielman drop his opposition? Didn’t think so.
I have no issue with a public input process on any significant development project that involves public space and/or dollars, so long as that process is well-defined and has a very specific beginning and end — unlike the Peace Bridge efforts. Too often, though, such a process gets co-opted by one special interest or another who didn’t like the outcome the first time around.
“Are we really that desperate that we’ll take anything that looks shiny and new?”
You call it desperate, Eric. My view is that after five decades (my entire life) of nothing, it’s a glimmer of progress. Perfect? Hardly, but progress nonetheless. Let’s not waste my kids’ lifetime waiting for perfect — which is my definition of silver bullet.
Well, if the preservationists have their way maybe I won’t have to take back my “I’ll be more surprised if Bass Pro does come here that doesn’t” phrase afterall.
eric p.., your repeated references to the downtown casino fail to mention the do-gooder lawsuits the senecas are having to fight in order to get it done. did it ever occur to any of these people that there are places where lengthy litigation is not considered a routine cost of doing business?
If it looks great, you must litigate!
BP –
Wait, so your position is you support this initiative EXCEPT you don’t take a position on the very thing that underscores the entire deal – the $25M in public money? Wow, helpful.
I always find it funny when politicians are asked about topics they don’t want to take a stand on and they answer with the awkward and pat “I believe there should be a vocal public debate on the issue.” In other words, I’m going to say nothing because I lack the courage or there is no upside in taking a stand. Of course, you can understand politicians doing it, as they have political ambitions which require alienating as few people as necessary.
By saying that there the use of public money for this deal should be “vehemently debated” you are saying you have no real position on this proposal. After all, if there was no public subsidy at all, there were be no rational reason to oppose the plan. With a rather large public expenditure, though, the entire deal becomes a question of resources. Is this the best use of $25M of taxpayer money?
So what’s your position on that?
Also, the process by which this ‘deal’ was struck raises a lot of questions. The most meaningful line on Mindy Rich’s resume is marrying a rich guy. As a result, she ends up neighbors with another rich guy (CEO of Bass Pro) and hence is involved in this community’s ‘negotiation.’ Nice approach. Very Louisiana-ish. I’m sure her and Quinn really had Bass Pro over the table to ensure we got the most for our buck . . . that wouldn’t create any awkwardness when the Riches and Morrises summer together later this year.
Not until I read the agreement and see where the money’s going.
Granted, a parking ramp is not the most attractive of structures. But it sure beats acres and acres of surface parking. And if the revitalized waterfront is going to attract people from the outer reaches of the city and suburbs, we have to have some place for these people to park. I mean, if parking structures drive a stake into the heart of historic developments, then what are the visitors who want to come to a revitalized waterfront supposed to do with their cars? Park downtown and take the Metro Rail? Maybe a few would do that. But we’re a car-centric society. If we expect thousands upon thousands to flock to our waterfront during the summer months, we’re going to have to have places for these people to park. Or the whole thing is going to fail.
BP:
It’s not just about “authenticity”, it’s about something that ultimately makes sense. I would like to know why Bass Pro can’t be situated on the old Aud site, particularly since this most recent plan calls for razing the aud and making it a “shovel ready” site. Is it necessary for the big box to bogart the most prime water site? If Bass Pro is going to be the anchor to all this development, why not make the area more attractive to other business development (and god forbid, maybe even some public-use areas) by making waterfront sites available?
Painting Preservationists, or anyone who has concerns or questions or doubts as “obstructionist” is facile and pointless.
I think Buffalo Geek’s post on this topic made a lot of sense.
Does it not make sense to put a retailer who is in the business of selling boats and fishing gear to be on the water?
What is wrong with having a retailer who actually promotes the *use* of the waterfront? I took the time to read what is available online in regards to this proposal and can’t understand the rabid opposition.
What does the opposition favor?
Good God A-mighty, It just never stops, does it?
50 years of waiting, I see the white elephant looming. I don’t want it to fall, but history tells the story.
At this point, Tell Bass Pro to “do like they do elsewhere” and build WITHOUT CORPORATE WELFARE, or tell them to take a hike and get IKEA in there.
Some of the people fighting the Casino, Joel Rose for one, has told me that he’s fighting the casino not because of economics, but because of his fear of the fate befalling his fellow citizens who will spend what little money they now have trying to get rich by gambling, and the Senecas don’t use the money they will reap from Buffalo’s poor wisely on the various reservations. So there’s obviously more than one mindset in the anti-casino forces.
I certainly understand the “DO SOMETHING WITH IT BEFORE I DIE” mentality. I’m one of them. But just for once, could it be done RIGHT??
It’s one thing for someone to say, we should take a close look at the project and make sure it follows with prior planning and preserves green space, etc.
It’s another thing for people to just dismissively call the design an “abomination” or to impugn the people who put it together just ’cause. It’s also another thing for people to whinge about the “authenticity” of the site without explaining themselves, since it used to be the docks – not the most savory part of town.
My criticism is primarily directed at the latter.
the bottom line is that few things get built in our neck of western new york because outside developers have only to read the local papers or stop by the country club bar in sands point or boca raton to hear the latest horror stories about the last group that tried to do business here. there wouldn’t be any big box stores if tons of people didn’t go to them, and the property in question wouldn’t have been a vacant lot for the past half century if some of those now freely criticising and talking about their wonderful ideas had come foreward previously and put their plans into action. why can’t they build it at the aud? why can’t you go live five miles from where you live. you don’t want to. i find it curious that no one here is talking about the jobs that will be created in the center of the city. and yes, the public funding is a potential problem. but commenting on, much less taking a position on a deal one hasn’t seen seems irresponsible at best.
Hank — What makes you think IKEA will simply come here on their own? Unfortunately, our current economy makes “corporate welfare” somewhat necessary — bait, if you will, to attract a business to an area it otherwise wouldn’t look at. Name one significant business that has located here (or most anywhere in upstate NY) in the last 20 years without some form of subsidy.
I don’t like it, but if that’s what it takes to float our economic ship up off the bottom, then so be it.
As for “doing it right,” who decides what is right? Again, waiting for everyone to agree on “right” assures nothing will get done.
Steve, that’s just the point. Buffalo and WNY are marks for businesses with a penchant for shaking down local government to increase their bottom line. Why can’t Buffalo get a “Clean Deal” from a private business? What makes WNY the Patsy?
Hank —
We can’t get a “clean deal” because we are typically not a prime market for anyone. The cost of doing business is high all across NY. We have buckets o’ brownfields waiting to remediated and claimed, but that too costs money. And, we have a government/political structure that seems designed to scare the bejeebers out of anyone with an idea.
So, how do we get these folks to look at us? Money. IDA tax breaks, state and federal incentives of all flavors, NYPA power, and on and on and on. I don’t know that I’d ever shop at a Bass Pro anywhere (since, so far, they don’t sell golf equipment), but I’d guess they are getting no different treatment or incentives than would be or have been offered to all manner of companies. Look at what was put on the table to get Geico here. Ingram Micro. Hell, we emptied the cupboard for that German (I think) firm to open a chemical plant on the vacant site of a former chemical plant in Niagara Falls, and still they turned us down.
Bass Pro or (insert company name here) probably doesn’t need us nearly as much as we need them. So long as the scale is tilted that way, incentives are the cost of being in the game.
Let me close with a question. Would people feel differently about the subsidies if the name on the door was, say, Intel?
PLEASE! Develop sports fishing down there, ice fishing the works. Just don’t bring in a strip mall w/ yet another Banana Republic & maybe a Cheesecake Factory. Ugh, might as well let Rick Snowden bring in the whores.