In his now-repetitive, approximately bi-monthly anti-Bass Pro column, Donn Esmonde writes something new:
Finishing the in-progress project with public waterfront space, with offices, apartments, restaurants and bars in buildings similar to the Coit-McCutcheon, would give us a slice of the old Canal Village. It would be our version of Toronto’s Distillery District, Baltimore’s Fell’s Point, San Diego’s Old Town or Manhattan’s South Street Seaport — but with historic underpinnings that those people- magnet projects cannot match.
Fell’s Point in Baltimore. Well known to any fan of the best show ever – Homicide: Life on the Streets.
Fell’s Point was never razed to the ground. It has been restored. In addition, there is a comprehensive project underway which will, among other things, feature a “retail anchor” (HORRORS! OBSTRUCTION! OMGOMG!) and … wait for it…
Parking! (OMG! IT’S RUINED !!!1! THE HUMANITY!). While the retail anchor is clearly on a smaller scale, it does underscore the fact that shopping districts attract businesses better when they’re around.
Toronto’s Distillery District. It’s well to the east of downtown Toronto.
It, too, is a restoration of an area and of structures that were never demolished.
Look what’s being built as part of the project. Condominiums. Not just any condominiums, but the standard-issue high-rise Toronto condominiums that soar into the sky and have loads of…
Parking! (HORRORS! OMG!) In fact, it’s street-level parking.
South Street Seaport is also a restoration of existing buildings. I’d also add that it’s a shadow of its former self, looking quite rough around the edges. It happens to feature a huge mall right on the water’s edge – which I would characterize as being a “big box” – which also has a boardwalk around it. Just like the proposed Bass Pro store for Canal Side. That big box that says “Pier 17” on its side also houses – horrors – chain stores.
San Diego’s Old Town I’m not very familiar with, but I understand through the internets that it was the mid-18th century location of the founding of California by Junipero Serra. It also contains authentic old buildings; not replicas. It is not on a waterfront. Nothing says “heritage tourism” like Old Town San Diego’s “Bazaar del Mundo”. By my count, there are 8 parking lots or structures, including one for the San Diego Trolley, which actually runs all the way downtown and then down to the Mexico border. Here’s a satellite image of the area.
So, the point is that all of these places feature parking. All of them contain restorations of existing structures; none of them are wholesale replicas of a former historic district that had long ago been paved over. South Street Seaport contains a big box mall that has been made to look pretty and waterfronty. Fells Point is undergoing some refurbishment that includes a parking structure and an anchor tenant. San Diego is completely different from our waterfront in just about every way. The Distillery District features parking and at least two brand new condo towers that are built with so little fanfare it should make anyone concerned about the Gates Circle Uniland condo cringe.
Also, on what empirical basis does Esmonde write:
They gathered at the Erie Canal Harbor on a drizzly Tuesday, with the governor in town, to send the man a message: We are a dozen, but we stand for thousands — most of whom do not call themselves preservationists.
By citing other “similar” projects as the ideal for Canal Side, Esmonde merely underscores the inflexible foolishness of the opposition’s position. The purity they seek is not evident in the examples that they cite. If they want Mystic Seaport or Williamsburg, then just say so.
The only valid points they’ve got are the public money and the lack of public input on the new plan.
The latter is coming, and the former was already part of the 2004 plan, only on a smaller scale.
The Buffalo Record 
It just amazes me how people like you are constantly just blown away by the Bass Pro “renderings.” You have zero comprehension of what creates vibrant urban districts. One giant store and a joke of a museum are not going to do it. (yeah i know the idea is to attract others, but that has yet to prove to be the case – Bass Pro typically latches on to existing malls and retail developments, it doesn’t start it…) I was able to view a floor plan for the proposed bass pro store, it has one entrance, ONE STINKING ENTRANCE. Well, that is in addition to the enormous loading dock and service area that abuts Main Street. The entire tail next to their boat basin up to main street is all service, not retail. There are ZERO entrances or access ways towards the water. So basically people are going to have to walk the quarter mile around the structure, next to a giant, blank store wall to enjoy the Buffalo River.
I can work with a Bass Pro, but this plan is just absolutely god awful, yet you continually make a complete ass of your self with your tirades against anyone who supports the current plan that IS IN PLACE and IS BEING IMPLEMENTED.
The 2004 plan is the right plan. It is the type of development that is going to create a stimulating urban neighborhood and allow for simple expansion into adjacent areas. This bass pro plan and its supporters are the obstructionists standing in the way of what has been continuous and great progress.
South Street Seaport is also a restoration of existing buildings. I’d also add that it’s a shadow of its former self, looking quite rough around the edges. It happens to feature a huge mall right on the water’s edge – which I would characterize as being a “big box” – which also has a boardwalk around it. Just like the proposed Bass Pro store for Canal Side. That big box that says “Pier 17? on its side also houses – horrors – chain stores.
Think you’ve stuck yourself in a little trap here. Esmonde’s wrong because South Street Seaport sucks. I agree. But then you go on “and it’s just like the Buffalo Bass Pro!!!” See the problem here?
SSS actually is, to my mind, a good model for what the Bass Pro Waterfront will end up like, minus of course the boatloads of tourists that mill around it because they don’t know where else to go.
Pundit, if you dig Homicide, you should check out The Wire (if you haven’t already). Same city, same creative team, yet even more depressing and compelling.
As far as Bass Pro goes, as somebody who was dramatically unimpressed with the inital Aud pitch, putting the store around the waterfront would not signal the end of the world. At least it’s a taxible entity.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t Fells Point the result of private development and private dollars without the use of Corporate Welfare??
Open up our waterfront propoerty for sale and let developers build what the market will support, not a taxpayer supported mega-bait & tackle shop favored by an unaccountable public authority.
EXACTLY MIKE!!!! Just like the 2004 plan, invest in constructing all the necessary infrastructure – utilities, cobblestone roads, the commercial slip, bridge, etc… and that will make the adjacent land valuable for private investors to put their own money in. WHAT A CONCEPT!
Where did I say SSS sucks? I said it’s a shadow of its former self. That’s because it’s not being maintained as well as it could. I happen to think SSS is just fine.
My point is that Esmonde holds SSS up as the ideal, yet it’s very similar to Canal Side + Bass Pro.
I know. YOU have all the answers. Not that I know who YOU are.
Are you saying that Bass Pro didn’t pretty much single-handedly turn around the Auburn Mall in which it’s situated? Are you 100% sure that Bass Pro “doesn’t start it” anywhere, or should I rely on the “typically” as being your out?
Great. When they have the public comment period when the EIS is completed, you can mention that to them.
Yes, it’s quite inconvenient that *blecch* trucks have to be used to bring goods in to stores. Except on Elmwood. There, they’re brought in on the wings of angels and the backs of cute woodland creatures.
Bring it up at the public comment sessions.
No, people like you and Esmonde make asses out of yourselves constantly parroting the same tired lines like “1/4 mile”.
And the attempts to co-opt the “obstructionist” label are also funny, given that Ciminelli hasn’t slowed one tiny piece of the current plan down right now. To cite the project manager on-site, they’re full steam ahead, and they can either put a park or a Bass Pro on the river, but they’re not even close to that point yet. So nothing’s being obstructed. Thanks for playing, though.
Then you add, ostensibly agreeing with Mike in WNY:
There hasn’t been retail in downtown Buffalo for how long, now? All of a sudden a little sanitized Epcot Center of “Erie Canal Docks Land” is going to bring whom, exactly, flocking down to the water to open up shop? What’s going to bring tourists down there? A 20-yard long terminus of a Canal that doesn’t terminate there? A replica bridge? A tchotchke store that sells things with Buffalos on it?
Something tells me Mike in WNY is going to be consistent enough to not only be against the public money for the Bass Pro building, but also against the public money dedicated to the remainder of the Canal Side project – including the cute little faux brownstones and brick storefronts.
Well Mr. Don Esmonde strikes again. If anyone is trying to hijack the project it appears he is the #1 culprit. He says there was a dozen people in attendance. Last I checked there were over a quarter million people in the city, and a million in the metro. Hardly a significant number in attendance considering the population base. To improve the numbers he tries for the groundswell by relating these dozen people to the groups they belong to. As if everyone in those groups agrees with the attendee. I particularly liked the Faith based touch. What can we expect next? A religious apparition on the site?.
Fells Point was a rough waterfront area of Baltimore, that is being gentrified due to it’s proximity to the Inner Harbor (next to Little Italy). etc.Go there on a week day and the streets are empty. On weekend nights think Chippewa street. It is still rough around the edges. Baltimore’s Inner Harbor was a catalyst for that whole area including Canton.The Inner Harbor got rolling in the 70’s due to lots of lots of Govt subsidy including the National Aquarium. Now it has thousands of luxury Condominiums to boot.
I know what he was and wasn’t saying. But his point is made with faulty examples of projects that bear no resemblance whatsoever to any proposed Buffalo project. There is nothing small scale about South Street Seaport. The small scale urbanism of Fells Point is authentic and it’s one thing to restore the real thing, it’s another to manufacture it from whole cloth.
The lone man is a member of the board of a state-created, state-run corporate entity that was created by the prior elected governor, and is run now by the current elected governor, and this board answers to its parent corporate entity, the ESDC, and the governor. Quinn is the de facto spokesperson and the driving force behind this project, but he didn’t do it alone.
I didn’t do any polling – did you? Did Tielman? Did that coalition of people about whom Esmonde so glowingly writes in today’s column? Of course not. But your paragraph presupposes that, regardless of actual public opinion, mine and the the “Joe Six-Pack” opinion is stupid while Tielman’s and Esmonde’s is somewhat mightier and more pure. Like a mountain spring.
Somehow I find it extraordinarily difficult to believe for a second that if Bass Pro said it wanted to locate on the Webster Block or anywhere else in the vicinity of this project that Tielman et al. would be just hunky-dory with it. But the point is that Bass Pro wants to re-create the central wharf building that actually stood on that spot back when replicas weren’t needed. There is nothing historically inaccurate or wrong about a large building being on that site. As for the parking, I agree that it could be relocated. I think that’s maybe the 20th time I’ve said that.
Quinn says he’s the one who funded it. No one has rebutted that.
Please cite one source for the proposition that anything has been halted. I spoke with the project manager in the Ciminelli trailer on-site. Nothing is halted. Nothing has been halted. The fate of the Bass Pro location has not stalled one solitary thing.
Development is already underway. There are two blocks that are under scrutiny, and construction of actual buildings is months away. They haven’t even prepped the site for the streetscape yet.
In short, not everything has to look like Elmwood to be either urbanist or successful.
This we can agree on Pundit
Small scale urbanism? Buffalo already has that in spades. Allentown, West Village, Elmwood Village, Hertel. Why would anyone want to cannabalize these areas by creating a competitve district is beyond me.
Because, Frieda, everything has to be the same in Buffalo, forever and ever. And ever. And, if by some chance some of it gets torn down and sits empty for, um, decades, what ever gets built has to look the same, forever and ever.
I suspect Esmonde would have written the same column if there was a single soul standing out there with a “I hate Bass Pro” sign.
It seems he has a stream of these written with just enough blanks to fill in to make it seem up-to-date. Gob forbid HE actually talk to the guys in the Ciminelli trailer to learn that NOTHING HAS BEEN STOPPED. He is Mary Kunz Goldman with a cause.
Mystic Seaport or Williamsburg = Old Town San Diego
not anywhere near the water, it is a collection of some “historic” buildings (sounds like some were moved there but you couldn’t really tell if most were new construction or historic). Old Town is the place you take your relatives when you (or they) are afraid to go over the border, afraid to take them to a authentic mexican restuarant, and prefer to walk around in a psudo-sanitized culture of mariachi bands, while sifting for ‘gold’ and picking up some cheap shot glasses. Old Town is where you host your visitors the first two weeks you live in San Diego, after that you typically avoid it for the more real, exciting, dynamic neighborhoods.
Fells Point = Allentown with rowhouses. Gritty, real, dynamic RESDIENTIAL neighborhood that was saved from demolition in the 70’s and has prospered from the residual waterfront boom. Save a couple wharehouse rehabs, the core of Fells around broadway towards the water, is 2 to 3 story rowhome bars, shops, boutiques, a public market and mostly resdients. Narrow streets make it car unfriendly. Pundit’s development proposal example is probably four blocks off the water. It is wholly analogous to Canal Side b/c it is and was a consistent preservation district with very stringent protections over the numerous existing structures before and during any redevlepment. It is a complementary neighborhood (along with Federal Hill) to the main attraction, the Inner Harbor.
I am completely dumb founded that people are complaining about the Bass Pro building not being “small scale urban” but are okay with the naval yard tool shed that is there currently. You can try to recreate Elmwood or Allentown on the water but it just isn’t going to fly because those places are genuine and refurbished, read not recreated.
Personally I think Pass Pro is an improvement to the 2004 plan and will help draw people to the waterfront. Clearly some people don’t feel this way and that’s fine. But lets not kid ourselves here, generally speaking I would rather have the “Bass Pro Mall” than the “Canal Side Plaza.”
Wish I had a boss like BP’s who didn’t mind if I blogged the whole day long. Can’t wait to see if he expects to continue commenting on TV shows, escaped bears, and cat-shaped toasters while on the public dime.
“The lone man is a member of the board of a state-created, state-run corporate entity that was created by the prior elected governor, and is run now by the current elected governor, and this board answers to its parent corporate entity, the ESDC, and the governor.”
Thank you. I always knew and said that Brian Higgins was full of crap when he said this would be “locally-controlled.” Of course Manhattan is only 352 miles away.
Also, having spent the best years of my life at Happy Hour at the South Street Seaport, I think it’s closer to the existing plan than Bass Pro II.
Bad Urbanism.. BAD BAD BAD!!
For anyone a fan of urban waterfronts and is well versed in urban design, knows this is rotten…
There are so many other ways bass pro could have been incorporated into waterfront developement and they looked at NONE OF THEM. Larry Quinn LIED when he said at a public forum that an architect had reviewed other locations and it was proven that they couldn’t work.. he is full of it…
One more person uses “urbanism” and I poke their freakin eyes out. Donn goes on like this on a regular basis. It’s like the dog that barks down the street. After a while you don’t hear it.
NYC – that truck garage/casino a good idea? Or the schlock that will eventually take its place? Yeah. And that will draw more than anything that Tielman can ever dream up. If you want to bitch about something, I would consider the casino more of an abomination. Why doesn’t Donn tag that one on a regular basis?
Buffalo Inner Harbor, 2012…
Aud still standing, boarded up…. Donovan building, coming down any day now… Wharf neighborhood, still empty, snowfencing and concrete barriers, but that pretty bowstring bridge is open to visitors ooooh…. weeee!…. HSBC Arena patrons walk the empty windswept Webster Block, hop in their cars and head out to Cheektowaga or Amherst for post game libations and meals.
So sad..so pathetic… Welcome to Buffalo!
pundit….where have esmonde, “good grief” etc. been for the past half century? they had all that time to convince people how to develop the vacant, weed choked gravel expanse now in question. did they do it? no. they waited until someone else came up with a plan and then criticised. typical loser mentality here. as for the south street seaport, the only reason there ever was to go there was the fishmarket, which is now gone. the bridge and river views are much better on the brooklyn side.
Um, no, esmonde and good grief had a plan. How about where was Bass Pro all along? THEY waited until someone came up with a plan (after decades) and then they squashed it with the help of Larry Quinn.
I’ve gotten a little frustrated at the sniping that Canal Side seems to generate among the local bloggers and comments. I wrote too long an essay to put it here. Please check it out at [url=http://paulbuckley14059.wordpress.com/2007/08/10/a-letter-to-buffalo-canal-side-bloggers/]here[/url]
(And I apologize if my hot link didn’t work)
BBD
The Bass Pro plan may be a complete flop if the details are not worked out in a way that creates lively streets around it. That same can be said about the so called consensus plan. The difference is that the BP plan has a major tenant and can be built. The so called Consensus plan had not tenants and no real plan to build it which pretty much would have guaranteed empty forlorn streets.
Too bad the interested parties need to fight to the death over this instead of working to make the viable plan with tenant in tow the best that it can be.
I don’t think the 500,000 who oppose the huge subsidy to Bass Pro and the 150 who are for it really want to talk to each other.
Wow made up figures to back up your position. I think you have now swayed me to your side. Now as far as the earth being flat what was your proof on that again?
HAHAHAHAHhahahahaha Did you hear that Pundit? He says I can’t break out of the suburban strip mall developer mind set. Too funny.
Building simulated historic streets with the hope that someone will eventually build simulated historic buildings to be filled with unspecified tenants is not a plan it is folly. Adding a wasteland of empty space called a park at the river edge in a city that desperately needs density and activity is not a plan ( it does not even have any “historic” precedence). Thinking that flocks of people from around the world are going to stop by here to hang out in the ye olde shoppe towne because it is next to a little tiny stub of the Erie Canal is folly again. Reality check…most people have never heard of the Erie Canal and except for this actual little historic boat slip there is NOTHING historical left of this site. All the rest is Disney on an extremely small scale. Buffalo has enough real history rotting to the ground. This is not a historic place it is a parking lot.
Paul:
1. You claim to “rebut” the fact that Quinn got the project funded by talking about the streets and the museum. Not the quaint buildings.
2. There’s a poignant irony in your bitching about the trucks that would need to service any store down there in Canal Side. Why? Because Canal barges were the 18-wheelers of the 19th Century.
3. Have any of your coalition groups had a discussion with Bass Pro or ECHDC about moving the Bass Pro to the Webster Block or Aud block? Somehow I strongly, strongly doubt it. Why? Because it’s better to moan to the media and hold placards than try and accomplish something.
4. The environmental review process is already underway and only affects the area where Bass Pro and the planned parking lot will sit.
5. You’re right – Esmonde used those other cities’ projects as examples of what should happen in Buffalo. It is a comparison of apples and anvils. I doubt that the preservationists would go for a Pier 17-style big box mall on the waterfront. (In fact, that’s evident from the Bass Pro opposition). I doubt that the preservationists want a 50-story glass condo building adjacent to the site. I doubt that the preservationists want about 8 parking lots on the site. I doubt that the preservationists want a parking garage and anchor tenant on the site, like Fells Point expects. I know Faneuil Hall used to be held up as the example, but recently has been absent. That’s probably because it’s different too in that it’s pretty much all chain stores now, and there’s a newer building that blocks access and the view of the waterfront across the street from Faneuil Hall. Not to mention the Marriott Long Wharf.
6. You indicate that we don’t “plan” based on the opinion of Joe Sixpack, and you thank God for that. First off, why does the preservationist opinion automatically trump Joe Sixpack’s opinion? Who made you people Jesus Christ almighty? Secondly, there is no planning in this town whatsoever. That has not been changed, despite myriad calls for same, and I suspect part of the reason why is that the ad hoc battles that get waged in Buffalo over development is a publicity boon for preservationist types who enjoy getting their names in print, opposing this and that. If there was a dash of political will with a sprinkle of motivation to change that, it would have happened long ago.
7. The preservation community’s mission appears to be the promotion of the preservation community, because Canal Side is not a preservation issue. It’s a design issue and a subsidy issue. Everything down there is a made-up Epcot. Where are the brothels, the dingy pubs, and the other nefarious industries allied to the canal barge industry? I mean, if you’re all about preservation those would be part of the plan. But this was never about preservation.
The history of the Canal District is fascinating, but it ain’t the Louvre nor is it something that actually exists any longer. It’s something that needs to be re-created. The last thing we need in this town is another fucking park on the waterfront. We need a vibrant waterfront that caters to tourists and has businesses on it that pay taxes and rent.
Stop pretending to be in favor of the Benderson proposals surrounding the Canal Block. It’s pure comedy for a self-described preservationist.
Here’s a question – if the 2004 plan is implemented, who builds the buildings? Who pays the rent? Who collects the rent? How much will the rent be? Who will be the first retailer to take a chance on the foot of Main Street – a place that is devoid of any sort of retail that would attract a person from Cheektowaga, much less a visitor to Niagara Falls.
Steel, go down to the site sometime. You won’t see the curbs and the cobblestone street remnants sticking right out of the dirt, because it’s not so. If only this city had the power and money to build for its future rather than cling to its past mistakes.
I
I challenge the Bass Pro forces to get more than 150 politically-unconnected names on a petition that accurately describes their proposal.
JIm O. 500,000 oppose the project? When was the last time you were in Buffalo? 1965?
Actually in front of the ruins that have been uncovered there is the historic fabric of Lloyd Street with cobbles and sandstone curbing intact. Because of Bass Pro they have to curve the road at this point around the skyway pier forcing the removal of the historic fabric. The original roads will be changing to accommodate larger geometry for a large retailer.
And Pundit, you are a freak. Alternatives have been forwarded to Quinn and Higgins but you would just rather have more fun assuming (as you always do) that people just like to bitch and moan. It’s easier to be critical of them that way.
Also, Bass Pro will require large trucks backing from Main Street into their Service and Warehouse wing which is the section wrapping around the end of Prime Street. STEEL- no shops, storefronts, anything in that section of building, just large loading bays pointing at Main Street next to the parking garage. And Pundit, no shit it’s necessary for a large retailer, but the plan sucks. A large chunk of the neigborhood will have nothing to activate it.
Why can’t they look at alternative s to Bass Pro or an alternative location. I actually think they are so let’s hope we get something better out of this then what we have been shown thus far. It will be a sad day in Buffalo if this crap moves forward.
I didn’t realize the architects have completed the plans? NYC or is it nyc seems to privy to them.
Show me.
My freakishness is besides the point. Has anyone talked to Bass Pro about it? After all, they’re the ones who want that spot.
It’s not a neighborhood and was never going to be. It was going to be a pretty shopping center with yet another waterfront park. Now it’s going to be a pretty shopping center with an anchor tenant to break the chicken/egg issue.
Small retailers need truck access too, last I checked. Even espresso shops and tchotchke outlets.
If I had a nickel for every time someone opposed to something said it would be a “sad day in Buffalo”, I’d have Mindy Rich money.
Buffalo has had nothing but sad days for decades. Buffalo’s downtown retail has had nothing but sad days since the 80s.
Man, I wish my life was enough of a waste that I actually had the time to take every single point in every single post that didn’t agree with me, cut and paste it, and think up some reason that it can’t be right or make some snide comment about each. And I can affirm everything NYC has stated in regards to the original cobbles and curbs as well as alternative plans that have been submitted to both ECHDC and Brian Higgins.
It’s called debating things point-by-point.
Doesn’t reading and commenting on things you consider to be a “waste” make you a waste, too?
You can affirm it, but no one’s proven it. Submit revised plans showing what’s exactly been changed. You quite obviously have access to it, right? Have the “alternative plans” been submitted by you to Bass Pro? What has their reaction been?
Good Lord. If this isn’t a case of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, I don’t know what is.
I wonder how many people said goodbye to WNY in the time since this thread began.
“JIm O. 500,000 oppose the project? When was the last time you were in Buffalo? 1965?”
Good argument.
WBEN had an online poll where, as I recall, 80% were against subsidies to Bass Pro. And that’s a pro-business station that opposes “obstructionism.”
I wish the Bass Pro pros here would identify their material connections to the project.
On line pole is unscientific and meaningless. Not even worth talking about.
Pundit, you do realize I am with you on this one right?
Right, just like unscientific primary elections determine who controls Buffalo.
These polls are not meaningless as they measure intensity of feeling, often a determining factor in politics and life.
But they do not measure how many people are for and against
On line pole is unscientific and meaningless. Not even worth talking about.
Pundit, you do realize I am with you on this one right?
——————————————————————————–
Y’all leave my Pal JO alone on polls. He’s been so busy front loading polls for Ron Paul for President he’s lost focus on how they work.
How many people have left Buffalo while this thread has run?
Probably not too many.
How many Buffalonians living in AZ TN NC SC FL GA realize they’re never coming back while this thread runs?
DOZENS AND DOZENS—No shot at you Alan. But if you look at the comment thread, this is the same kind of shit that was going on when they built the “SKYWAY WE DIDN’T NEED ANYMORE ” in the 50’s, and now the grandchildren of those complainers are complaining now, and just as much will get done to that area. NONE NADA NICHTS. That’s the sad part.
More than on
“And yes, you will see those curbs at Lloyd Street and the granite blocks of the street sticking out of the dirt “- Paul Fran
I thought the streets were CobbleStone, now you are saying they are Granite?
Streets made with stone (i.e. non-brick) blocks are colloquially called cobblestone in the presentday although the original word “cobblestone” referred to something more specific – the rounded cobbles typically taken from beaches and used to pave streets in the 18th century and prior. Charleston, SC, has many cobbled streets. But to answer your question, the stones used for the streets are granite blocks, not traditional cobbles. This is also true of the reconstructed streets in the Cobblestone District.
Steel stands by all the blowhards who truly believe a Ye Olde Historic Bass Pro and faux historic 500-car parking ramp is the best of all options on the waterfront. He doesn’t like small-scale buildings that really do replicate the old fabric of the Canal District but is gung-ho for a faux-historic sporting goods retailer that totally represents the “fakeness” you supposedly deride? Steel, explain your contradiction, please!
I never said I agreed with the faux historic look of the proposed Bass Pro. Personally I would prefer it be as contemporary as they could make it using the latest high tech construction methods. I am just being realistic. It has already been determined that what ever is built on the current weed filled lot must be simulated historic so that people can go there and pretend that they are in a canal town.
It is just that BP has an actual means to an end with an actual possibility of succeeding and drawing people. 10 or 15 little shops and a dead plaza seems less realistic to me.
I like how they like to bring up Elmwood Ave as a model. Elmwood is a greta asset to the city. Even with 10’s of thousands of people living in the neighborhood it still struggles at times. Do you really think that a tinny little isolated canal side cluster of shoppes is going to be all the rage in WNY?
I am not convinced the BP proposal will succeed either. I have not seen enough detail to know they are doing all the right things. I wish people were pointing out possible improvements to the more realistic scheme instead of being dead set against it because the dead windswept (unhistorical) plaza is not in the BP plan. Too bad no one is working to make the BP proposal better.
“He’s been so busy front loading polls for Ron Paul for President ”
If I knew what that meant, I could respond to it. All I can say is my brother taught me something important many years ago: people tend to accuse others of that which they are guilty of themselves. There’s a term in psychology for it that escapes me.
There’s clearly a severely undertapped market for restaurants, bars and entertainment in the downtown waterfront, Steel. An no where can you get a good iced latte on a warm summer night. I look at the god-awful California investor-owned Shanghai Red’s with its parking lot overflowing all days of the week and think to myself, gosh, if only more small enterprises could have the opportunity to set up shop at Erie Basin, they’d be a huge success overnight! No confidence, Steel? Look at the garbage there now and how it succeeds unabated. If the Canal District is allowed to become what it is designed to be, it would be a hit! It’s not like it’s a huge project, Steel. It’s eight acres. It’s barely bigger than the Latina’s plaza on Elmwood.
No boutique hotels on the water now, now cafes, no real bars, no seafood restaurant, no clam bar, no bike rental and sales place, no I-could-go-on-and-on… The list just mentioned would be enough to fill a good portion of the Canal District, apartments above, hundreds of residents across the street at Marine Drive with few retail opportunities, a light rail line that brings 9900 people into downtown daily, a stadium across the street with only a handful of drinking establishments nearby… there’s opportunity flowing out the wazoo, Steel. But you seem so down on Buffalo that you sincerely believe these kinds of establishments could not succeed in this location. Watch the cold iron grip of city ownership let go of these plots and guaranteed, developers will sense the opportunity.
Will this eight acre slice bring millions from across the globe? Probably not and that’s not the point. Who has ever heard of HH Richardson, or EB Green, or Frank Lloyd Wright? Certainly less than the number who have heard of the Erie Canal. Should we not still celebrate them and take advantage of the economic opportunity they represent?
And Steel, if this Bass Pro should be modern, why not take advantage of sites nearby like the Webster and Donovan blocks where it is locationally just as advantageous and doesn’t step on anyone’s toes?
Hank is right on here. How many people realize that they aren’t coming back after reading this agonizing debate. How much longer can this argument go on for? We all know people like Donn Esmonde is a complete ass and his friend Tim Tielman isn’t much better. Frankly, I’m in my early twenties and moved partially because I’m tired of the arguing and fighting. If you people put any positive energy into settling a problem Buffalo would be a lot better.
I’m tired of the people who are over 40 thinking that they have the solution to the problems that Buffalo faces. These are the same people that talk about bad urbanism. WTF is that? Stop trying to sound like a scholar or some artsy urban critic. If people like you would stop thinking that you have the ultimate answer and ask the people who are leaving this place what the problem is, maybe things would be different.
Get your heads out of the sand, stop bitching amongst yourselves and reach out to people that left. Ask them why they left and where they went. Everything in Buffalo is exasperating and draining. Nothing gets done and nothing will. I love the place but its arguments like these that make me realize that it isn’t coming back with morons like this trying to get anything done. Good luck with this one. Enjoy the sinking ship that is Buffalo.
Believe me, steveinDC, debates about future development are most lively in the most interesting and prosperous places. These conflicts, a sign of a lively democracy and an engaged citizenry, get special attention in the pages of the Buffalo News and would nary attract a word in the pages of the New York Times or the Toronto Star. Can you imagine either of those papers covering every raucous and nonstop development struggle between activists, developers and government? Rarely… yet all the best developments in these cities are the result of active debate and resolution. Don’t pretend Buffalo is alone.
I, for one, will not stay in Buffalo because a faux historic fishing retailer is built over one of Buffalo’s most historic sites and either, I believe, will you.
“I’m tired of the people who are over 40 thinking that they have the solution to the problems that Buffalo faces.”
Ilike that. When I was young, we were told not to trust anyone over 30.
But age is not the determining factor. There are many of us well over 40 who agree with Steve. Find out why they left. It’s not “Bad Urbanism” chasing people away. It’s having a decent project like this opposed by a few who want something built for their own personal satisfaction, anyone else be damned.
Paul Francis- Do I believe? I used to. I used to think that Buffalo could come back but the more I see idiots like Donn Esmonde have the ability to change development and influence the ideas of the whole region because its a one newspaper and media outlet town the more I want to give up. WBEN and channels 2,4,7 all spew the same rhetoric and Buffalo Rising, probably the largest pro Buffalo website, routinely turns into a forum for bickering about false positives and turning real positives into negatives.
Instead of figuring out what Bass Pro and Canal Side should and shouldn’t do, maybe Esmonde could use his worthless and overpriced private college degree (sorry im a SUNY UB grad) to find a way to bring new and well paying jobs to Buffalo. Instead of harping on the Bass Pro issue bi-weekly, maybe he could turn to more pressing economic issues to voice an opinion on.
I know I’m just a small sample but in the last 3 days in DC, i’ve run into 2 people who are from Buffalo and loved to hear about developments there. I talked to a former resident who moved out of Buffalo in ’69 today and he was all ears about what was going on in Buffalo. People have great memories of the place and would be willing to move back if only they could find a job and fix problems that have been going on.
I was thinking of using my unused blogspace to create a forum for people who don’t live in Buffalo to voice their opinion on what conditions need to change in order for them to come back. I don’t know rules about posting a site here and I haven’t quite got it set up but its an idea brewing in my head. Sound anymore useful than what is out there?
Hank is right on here. How many people realize that they aren’t coming back after reading this agonizing debate. How much longer can this argument go on for? We all know people like Donn Esmonde is a complete ass and his friend Tim Tielman isn’t much better. Frankly, I’m in my early twenties and moved partially because I’m tired of the arguing and fighting. If you people put any positive energy into settling a problem Buffalo would be a lot better.
I’m tired of the people who are over 40 thinking that they have the solution to the problems that Buffalo faces. These are the same people that talk about bad urbanism. WTF is that? Stop trying to sound like a scholar or some artsy urban critic. If people like you would stop thinking that you have the ultimate answer and ask the people who are leaving this place what the problem is, maybe things would be different.
Get your heads out of the sand, stop bitching amongst yourselves and reach out to people that left. Ask them why they left and where they went. Everything in Buffalo is exasperating and draining. Nothing gets done and nothing will. I love the place but its arguments like these that make me realize that it isn’t coming back with morons like this trying to get anything done. Good luck with this one. Enjoy the sinking ship that is Buffalo.
Your post is very nice and quite thoughtful. With all due respect, some things need to be pointed out.
This area cannot, and will never prosper without fundamental changes. This includes attitudes. NOT about cobblestone streets, Donny Osmonde at the News, not about pie-in-the-sky rehashes of history vis-a-vis the Erie Canal.
Ask yourself honestly if an outfit like Bas Pro would really consider WNY on it’s own merits or w/o government incentives.
The bottom line is that this area is sick. Sick areas do not attract businesses of significance. Insane taxes, much of which can be traced going to two insatiable monsters in this area: Public employee unions and welfare. COmpare this area to a sick person for a moment. You would treat a person first for his/her internal hemmoraging and internal viruses before worrying about what he/she is going to wear or where he/she is going to go for fun tonight. Sounds silly, but fundamentally that’s what we’re talking about here.
These two monsters must be slain, and they can be with truth, some guts, and smarts. That’s it in a nutshell. And believe me, there are plenty of people smart enough in this area, hell even on this blog, to know this. Plenty of loo-yahs (lawyers) who should be able to roll up there sleeves and get to work on slaying those beasts through legislation or the courts. But alas, many have no guts, probably many are in somebodys’ pocket, some are dumb, but I fear most are just in it for themselves, feeding off a dying hulk of a dying area whose population gets smaller and smaller with each passing year the way a terminal cancer ravages a poor victim, tearing more and more at a frame which becomes less and less. Yes, it’s that sick.
This area is dying of an illness, the cause of which is easily identifiable. But like the elephant in the living room, the savvy pretend it isn’t there. This area is famous for always putting the cart before the horse. Worrying over BS like where Bass Pro can or can’t be allowed to build while seemingly ignoring the serious issues which make attracting more businesses on a more consistent basis to this area exceedingly difficult if not impossible.
SO I agree with your attitude about the excessive bitching. But only because what’s being bitched about is useless and frivolous..
The biggest problem around here is that everyone is trying to grab a piece of the pie at somebody else’s expense.
As a preservationist I have talked to to the powers in charge to move Bass Pro to the Webster block, the aud site, with or without the aud, or the site of the former DL&W terminal. No response. They determined that Bass Pro should go in the historic site without any input from the people that negotiated the agreement years ago. We were just told that this is what Johnnie Morris wants. But that even seems to be a moving target. The bottom line is that this site is not Larry Quinn’s to give. It violates the MOU previously signed and negotiated in court. Quinn does not negotiate. When opposition was first voiced months ago, he didn’t offer to negotiate, solicit expert opinion, he just comes up with another plan, again without input from the people that worked long and hard on the original plan. The new plan still has a 100,000sq. ft building on the site as well as surface parking.
As an architect I can find numerous solutions to this all within a few hundred yards of the site.
How about the DL&W terminal site, coonected to the sabres already existing parking ramp. Parking, water site, historic building.
Build it on the aud site across from the district and rewater the prime slip bringing the water adjacent to the new building, connected to parking built on the Donavan site.
Isn’t this the kind of discourse we should have. Not the dictatorial actions by Quinn.
The biggest problem around here is that everyone is trying to grab a piece of the pie at somebody else’s expense.
Couldn’t have stated it better or more simply myself.