Site Shift?

12 Aug

central_wharf_1858.jpg
(Photograph from WNY Heritage Press)

This should make Esmonde and Tielman and the others pleased, right?

The Erie Canal Harbor Development Corp. is willing to move the proposed Bass Pro Outdoor World store off the historic Central Wharf portion of Buffalo’s redeveloped waterfront, a location that had provoked opposition from preservationists.

In a meeting with several elected officials and community leaders in the last two weeks, representatives of the planning panel have offered a revised site plan that shifts the store less than 100 yards, to the southeast corner of the parcel. The move would leave 95 percent of the original wharf site as an open plaza.

More than a half-acre of the latest proposed location lies outside the 12- acre Erie Canal Harbor site, which would place most of the Bass Pro structure outside the historic district.

Well, this is what they’ve been asking for, right? The ECHDC is being responsive to “concerns”, right?

“This is just pandering,” said Timothy A. Tielman of the Campaign for Greater Buffalo. “As long as that big box store and the rest of the mall they are planning are within the boundaries of the Erie Canal Harbor historic site, it is not acceptable.”

Ah, “big box store”. When compromise is on the table, zealots trot out intransigence and absolutism.

“We are currently in the process of revising our plan to incorporate some of the great feedback we have received from community leaders, community groups and individuals, alike,” Stefanie Zakowicz, agency spokeswoman, said in a written statement.

“We are not prepared to share any of the details of the plan until such time as we have the approval of all the stakeholders in the project,” she continued.

Seriously, Bass Pro has probably never, ever had such a hard time opening a store, anywhere.

Relocating the Bass Pro store to the southeast corner of the site — bounded by the Buffalo River, lower Main Street and a reopened section of Perry Street — would involve dropping plans to dredge the area to create a marina. Planners now propose installing floating docks to accommodate visiting boaters and on-water displays of Bass Pro boats.

The 100,000-square-foot, three-level store still would be built in the style of an original Central Wharf structure and

Here comes the rebuttal to “ruins public access to the waterfront” allegations:

would offer a public boardwalk along its waterside perimeter as originally proposed.

Other changes also seem interesting:

Additional revisions in the site plan by Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects of New York, the project’s designer, include canals cutting across the sites of the idle Memorial Auditorium and Donovan State Office Building. The canals would open up views through the now-filled-in blocks between Washington and Commercial streets.

In addition to the partnership, Quinn and other harbor panel representatives have conducted project update briefings with the Landmark Society of the Niagara Frontier; Mayor Byron W. Brown; Erie County Executive Joel A. Giambra; Rep. Brian Higgins, D-Buffalo; Assemblyman Sam Hoyt, D-Buffalo; and several others.

Rudnick said efforts to reposition the store and other changes demonstrate that the overall Canal Side blueprint is a “work in progress” and will continue to be modified as it undergoes environmental review and the quest for approvals.

“While they are ultimately looking for support, that wasn’t their objective in showing us this latest iteration. I think they are genuine in their request for feedback and additional ideas,” he said.

This exchange is typical:

Tielman, whose group has threatened a lawsuit to stop the project, said he recently met with Jordan Levy, the newly appointed chairman of the harbor panel, but his organization was not offered a firsthand look at the revised plan.

“I’ve heard about it from other people, but they didn’t show it to me,” he said. “I think that says a lot about the process.”

I, me, mine. I, me, mine. I, me, mine.

The process isn’t over yet. It’s a work in progress. What’s quite significant here is not only that input has been made and considered, but that changes have been considered. I don’t care where they put Bass Pro, as long as the deal isn’t killed. There will be further input. There will be public comment. The ECHDC has always said that its original proposal was not a fait accompli, and now we have proof. Everything ECHDC has said has been proven true, yet Tielman – as spokesman for the world – remains unhappy and hurls verbal bombs because he hasn’t gotten everything he wants. Part of a good settlement is both parties walking away unhappy.

I think a killing of this deal would be very sad indeed. In my personal opinion, a “festival space” or park or plaza or other open green space on the wharf site is redundant and wasteful. There is loads of greenspace on the waterfront. What we need there is business. We need a reason for people to actually come there. Elmwood is not the blueprint. South Street Seaport is not the blueprint. The practically empty Distillery District is not the blueprint. Faneuil Hall is not the blueprint. Fells’ Point is not the blueprint.

The Erie Canal Harbor terminus, such as it is, is the blueprint.

Do people want it to look like it did in 1868? No green space here on the central wharf site. Here’s the foot of Main Street showing the “1,000 foot long Central Wharf”.

That makes me LOL at all the “1/4 mile to walk to the water around Bass Pro” b.s., and also underscores that there was no (or scant) public access to the waterfront when the canal district was a bona fide canal district.

I’d rather leave the process up to people who are willing to compromise than rely on people who aren’t.

49 Responses to “Site Shift?”

  1. Andrew Kulyk August 12, 2007 at 7:40 am #

    Yet another downer this morning reading this article… one would hope for reason, compromise and optimism to prevail, but the true colors of their agenda come out clearly – these people will not rest until Bass Pro says “fuck it” and pulls out of here.

    In 2000, 2003, 2004 and 2007 Western New York welcomed visitors from all over the nation to marquee NCAA events at a packed HSBC Arena. We as a community put our best face on to make these visitors feel welcome and give them a positive impression of WNY; so much so that the NCAA subregional comes back again in 2010, no small feat when you see how many venues compete to attract this event to their city.

    Each time this tournament has been staged here, hungry and thirsty fans poured out into the empty and windswept streets looking for places to go to eat, drink and shop. What awaited them outside was fields under the skyway, a plywooded and shuttered Aud and paved parking lots. In ’04 visitors complained that there wasn’t a store around to buy something as simple as camera film.

    Trust me, these fans couldn’t care less about unearhted ruins and bowstring bridges. I don’t mean to denigrate that part of the Inner Harbor; I find it exciting and compelling, but what we need there is shopping, nightlife, residences, restaurants and a frenzy of activity.

    The 2010 subregional is 31 months away. Will we be showering our visiting fans with the same ole’ same ole’? Or will this neighborhood finally be taking shape with everything we want it to be?

  2. Andrew Kulyk August 12, 2007 at 7:46 am #

    I said it in yesterday’s thread and I’ll say it again — none of this is gonna happen, you watch. It will be mired in muck, lawsuits, pessimisim and despair as far as the eye can see.

    Y’all come out to Cheektowaga to see and experience something cool. Our lifestyles center at the Galleria is taking shape, with a plethora of new restaurants with outdoor dining, nighlife and entertainment venues and a host of new national shopping outlets, all designed as a “faux” Main Street.

    Plenty of free parking and easy access off of the 90.

    Yeah folks, the Tielmans of the world tried to do their obstructionist work here in Cheektowaga too. They were called “Citizens Task Force Against Another Mall”. We fought the naysayers; we won. Pyramid built their mall, and today Cheektowaga is the retail epicenter of Western New York, with yet more coming. Development proposals for the Galleria area and the Airport neighborhood come to Town Hall every week.

    Sucks for you, Buffalo, doesnt it?

  3. In da Buff August 12, 2007 at 12:23 pm #

    First person I thought of was u BP when I read this today…

  4. Mike In WNY August 12, 2007 at 3:15 pm #

    The ECHDC has always said that its original proposal was not a fait accompli, and now we have proof.

    You call it proof, I call it backpedaling because they weren’t successful in ramming their back room deal down the throat of WNY.

  5. Paul Francis August 12, 2007 at 5:46 pm #

    Tim Tielman was quoted in an unfortunate way. The entire preservation community, including Tielman, is glad to see the ECHDC is willing to change course. It’s a positive step in the right direction.

    Nonetheless, this compromise merely shifts the Bass Pro from one side of the Central Wharf to the other side of the Central Wharf. The Bass Pro is simply better off the Canal District site for any number of practical reasons, namely the inability of the historic street network to accomodate very large trucks or large volumes of drop-off traffic for customers. It is still an inappropriately large structure in a district that contained only small-scale buildings at one time. The atmosphere would be altered and the character changed. Move it to the Webster Block!

    It is nice to see the parking removed offsite and the boat basin removed that would have seen 1/3 of the site obliterated. If we are to move forward on this waterfront development, however, moving Bass Pro off site is the only way to go. It ends the controversy overnight. This merely shuffles the deck.

  6. SoParK August 12, 2007 at 6:21 pm #

    Too bad Jiimy G. wasn’t still the Mayor I think he would have rammed it down Tielmans throat. Anyway it would have been entertaining to watch.

  7. mike hudson August 12, 2007 at 6:27 pm #

    the deal is never gonna happen. the “preservationists” will have succeeded in preserving another vacant lot with zero historical value. indeed, even if they were successful in getting someone to build a bunch of faux historical shops in the lot, which they won’t be, the place would still be of zero historical value. “tim tielman was quoted in an unfortunate way”? is that double-speak for “the reporter wrote down what he said?”

  8. Paul Francis - ever visit Boston? August 12, 2007 at 6:30 pm #

    Paul,

    Can you tell me how the restaurants, stores, and offices in Boston manage to stock their shelves and keep business going?

    Have you driven around Beacon Hill, the Financial District, Faneuil Hall or the North End? Or what about the smaller towns in New England like Newburyport, Hingham or Provincetown?

    Your arguments regarding big trucks and access are ridiculous. Please go away. You’re a freaking joke.

    Enough already. Just build it as is! No more compromises.

  9. Buffalopundit August 12, 2007 at 8:18 pm #

    Paul: Tim Tielman’s “unfortunate” quote is only unfortunate because it prematurely exposes him for being nothing short of completely and utterly opposed to Bass Pro anywhere near downtown Buffalo under any circumstances. At least Ostrowski is up front about it. Tielman is against malls and chains and just about everything – except maybe chirpy birdies.

    The ECHDC has made a concession. You folks haven’t. I call bullshit.

    I call bullshit because now the biggest problem seems to be …

    …the trucks.

    How come 5 months ago I heard nary a peep about trucks? Now it’s “concern” number one. You guys are running out of ammo if you think that the logistics of getting wares to stores is going to halt a retail development.

    It’s not “inappropriately large”. Double-check the picture at the top of the post and maybe click the link.

    You say this “merely shuffles the deck”.

    The ECHDC has shown itself to be flexible, responsive to comments.

    I say your bluff is called.

  10. STEEL August 12, 2007 at 8:27 pm #

    Paul Francis,

    You are correct. Bass Pro will very much change the character of the canal area. It will change it form a wind swept empty field into a major retail area.

    Paul – There is no history there. Everything has been torn down!. I love how people talk about these mysterious historical boundaries now as if Buffalo’s now lost history stopped at these arbitrary lines. Only 5% of BP is now planned fro inside the magical historic boundary. I guess the faux little ye olde towne village buildings will make it historic again. but that 5% of BP within the arbitrary boundary will ruin everything.

    I hope that once the disney village is built someone erects a sign to tell everyone it is fake

  11. STEEL August 12, 2007 at 9:06 pm #

    Oh yes I forgot to rail against the ye olde empty plaza that apparently is back in the plan. That should really give people that historic feel.

  12. Good Grief August 12, 2007 at 9:19 pm #

    Steel, I’ve read your posts in a number of blogs and forums, and I pretty much always agree completely with you. But, for whatever reason, you have just fallen off the deep end in regards to Bass Pro. It saddens me a bit, cause you’re obviously very intelligent in regards to urban development, but you too have been completely duped by the utter hogwash of this plan. Now, if Bass Pro is moved south, it greatly improves a piece of the plan, but at the center is still an enormous parking facility that, of course, is completely necessary, but could be located elsewhere!

  13. Good Grief August 12, 2007 at 9:25 pm #

    Additionally, I’m also all for the development of the central warf. I don’t think it should be a big empty plaza, but it should also not be a giant box blocking waterfront access. It should be permeable structures that can easily be traversed around as well as through to access the water. The bass pro building is not permeable at all, with only one entrance on one side.

    And in regards to this being the most difficult store bass pro has ever tried to open, Its completely the opposite. I don’t think Bass Pro even has the interest to be here, except for the fact that there is a local group that wants to bend over backwards and completely give away the farm in order to get them here, Bass Pro doesn’t have to do anything or assume any responsibilitly. If they say Jump, Quinn says “how high?”

  14. mike hudson August 13, 2007 at 12:41 am #

    where were these preservationisits when the progressive minds that run the albright-knox decided to hold a fire sale and rid the city of its most valuable and important antiquities? oh yeah, they’re largely the same people who championed the sale.

    and why is everyone missing the fact that, before there were whorehouses, warehouses and bars there, an indian village occupied the site? why can’t trendy coffee shops be located in modern faux long houses along the river bank? you wouldn’t need any parking at all if visitors were forced to arrive by canoe or on horseback.

    bass pro sells boats, boating equipment, fishing tackle and live bait. how dare they want to locate on the waterfront! it makes no sense at all!

    and the next time some uppity clevelander makes a crack about what a dump buffalo is, you just tell him that the litigators all have good paying full-time jobs here and our vacant lots are still proudly vacant, thank you very much.

  15. Paul August 13, 2007 at 7:40 am #

    All the preservationists are asking, including Tielman, is that Bass Pro stay off the 12 acre historic site. The aud site, with or without the Aud, no problem!, the Webster block, no problem!, the area adjacent to DL&W, south of the historic district with acees to the water!, no problem, the second floor of the DL&W terminal, no problem.
    The historic site is sancrosanct, and the plan agreed to by the Erie Canal Development Corporation prohibits big block development and parking on the site. Any where else is fine.
    And by the way Paul Francis having been to Provincetown numerous times I can’t remember seeing many 100,000 sq. ft facilities. I guarantee that no matter where Bass Pro builds they will insist on loading docks, to back their trucks to. That is the only way to stock a store of that size. Where will these docks be. Maybe lake freightors? Seriously though, stores of this size do not exist at Fanueil Hall, Provincetown, etc.

  16. hank kaczmarek August 13, 2007 at 7:40 am #

    Seriously, Bass Pro has probably never, ever had such a hard time opening a store, anywhere.

    Absolutely Freakin’ Right. I’m surprised if they’re interested at all anymore.
    Now I understood and agreed with my friend JO and FNY’s argument about corporate welfare. If Bass Pro wanted to come to town, let them pay their own way.

    BUT—All this bullshit about where it’s going, and all the freakin’ minutae that keeps crawling out of the wainscoting is just pathetic.

    TRUCKS? The guy who was best man at my wedding lived on Beacon Hill in Boston, BP and others know what the streets are like. I lived in New Orleans as well–ever walk the streets in the Quarter? They get all their food, drink, and other deliveries with no problems. It’s a ridiculous argument.

    BUT THE ARGUMENTS WILL CONTINUE—Until Bass Pro is a memory like the Domed Stadium in Lancaster.

  17. In da Buff August 13, 2007 at 7:46 am #

    One group no one seems to be paying attention to is F.I.S.H. (Fish Inside Stupid Harbor)

    From Wally the Walleye (group’s leader)…

    Humans don’t care what is going to happen to us when Bass Pro opens. Our study indicates that Bass Pro will increase the number of fish caught and killed from lake Erie and Buffalo River within 1 mile radius of proposed store by 128%.

    Fish are willing to sacrafice themselves in the name of progress…it was all part of the original master plan, but the 128% increase wasn’t part of the agreement. The number was never supposed exceed 75%.

    We are not going to sit around, uh, I mean swim around while the spirit of the original plan is just ignored.

    Poor fishies…

  18. mike hudson August 13, 2007 at 8:21 am #

    first time i ever heard of a vacant lot described as sacrosanct. by a guy who would apparently mind seeing a faux starbucks (spot) in a faux historic warehouse — purpose built to house the faux starbucks — there instead. too f*ckin funny.

  19. STEEL August 13, 2007 at 8:44 am #

    I like the Indian village idea. Of course that would mean filling in the canal to make it authentic.

  20. STEEL August 13, 2007 at 8:46 am #

    and you could work out some kind of tie in to the nearby Indian garden shed casino.

  21. Andrew Kulyk August 13, 2007 at 8:47 am #

    SoPark is right about Jimmy Griffin… as much of a clown as he is, he cut through all the b/s back in the 80s when the same preservationist crowd spewed out the same tired arguments to try to block the new downtown ballpark. Their mouthpiece on the council then was one Alfred Coppola, who like Jim Ostroski on this thread railed against public subsidies for the stadium.

    If you recall what the stadium site looked like back then, it was much like the Canalside neighborhood today… pretty much rubble strewn windswept parking lots and tumbleweeds. But that didn’t stop the preservationists to look for something… anything… representing a “Geo Wash slept here” moment to kill the ballpark plan for good.

    The stadium did get built…it was an architectural marvel…which became the blueprint for ballpark design across the minor league spectrum. And oh…. how hilarious it was to watch Coppola and the preservationist crowd, jockeying for position in front of the cameras at the stadium ribbon cutting, all boasting how THEY made this a better project.

  22. TTR August 13, 2007 at 8:52 am #

    The only thing worse than a bridge with cars on it falling into water would be a bridge with cars on it falling into a crowded retail facility. Maybe it is time for the ECHDC to re-think building anything under or near the bridge. Concentrate all those funds to the east of the skyway. Concentrate on the rest of the Cobblestone distict.. Let The rest stay as is until the bridge is removed. Whenever.

  23. Dan August 13, 2007 at 8:53 am #

    I have the perfect solution for all of this.

    We need to do a study. 😀

  24. Andrew Kulyk August 13, 2007 at 8:54 am #

    Meanwhile… back here in Cheektowaga… my friend and colleague Councilman Tom Johnson was fueling the anti-mall crowd, a disparate coaltion of union people, environmentalists, a small group of doomsayers from the VFW post that was about to be displaced for the mall entrance, and general bon vivants from the neighborhoods who were greatly in need of constructive hobbies.

    He spent every waking moment calling the Army Corps of Engineers, the DEC, every state agency he could enlist to find roadblocks. He would organize neigborhood meetings, and hundreds of citizens would attend, shrieking in horror and disgust about this abomination of the mall that would scar and ruin Cheektowaga forever.

    The Walden Galleria open its doors in May of 1989 and a lavish party and ribbon cutting heralded the occasion. And guess who was front and center for the dedication ceremonies? Yup…Tom Johnson.

  25. Andrew Kulyk August 13, 2007 at 8:55 am #

    Mike H… “sacrosanct”… TOO FUNNY! It’s a frikkin empty field for Gods sakes!

  26. Adam K August 13, 2007 at 9:45 am #

    What makes the gravel pit on the water sacrosanct and the rest not? I don’t understand the preservationist angle because its a pit with a highway over it. That’s what we’re preserving?

    If you want to preserve something, it should probably exist first.

    The Erie Canal idea is cool. Very cool. but to fail to surround it – on site – with retail and parking is short-sighted.

    If you want to preserve something so badly, the Lafayette Hotel needs some serious work or its gonna need to come down in 10-15 years.

  27. Buffalopundit August 13, 2007 at 10:41 am #

    I thought the loading docks were going to back up onto Main Street. If so, what do the cobblestone streets have to do with the price of tea in China?

    Further up, “Paul” actually alludes to Provincetown. Of all the non-sequiturs in the world – I mean, why not say that Canal Side won’t properly resemble the summit of Mt Ararat, for God’s sake? P-town is a seaside fishing village that has slowly been transformed into a high-priced, part-time, high-rent resort community.

    Buffalo is none of those things, and has nothing there to transform except gravel, rocks, and weeds into something that resembles what used to be there.

    Faneuil Hall has Clinton Street, which backs up to North Marketplace, and Chatham Street, which backs up to South Marketplace. Both of them are used regularly by the types of local delivery boxtrucks that would most likely service Bass Pro (except for its initial inventory build-up).

    No, Faneuil Hall doesn’t have a 100,000SF building shop, but South Street Seaport does.

    I’ll tell you one thing for sure.

    There is one thing that Buffalo can claim that none of the other waterfront developments the “preservationists” like to highlight have.

    Not Fells’ Point, not South Street Seaport, not Inner Harbor Baltimore, not Faneuil Hall, and not even Old Town San Diego. Not even the more apt comparison to Bricktown in Oklahoma City.

    None of them have a 4-lane Skyway lumbering overhead.

    Seriously, you’re just grasping at straws here.

  28. dave in Rocha August 13, 2007 at 10:49 am #

    The ECHDC has always said that its original proposal was not a fait accompli, and now we have proof. – Pundit

    You call it proof, I call it backpedaling because they weren’t successful in ramming their back room deal down the throat of WNY. – Mike in WNY

    According to Mike in WNY, the ECHDC was in a no-win situation. If they didn’t modify the proposal, then they’re guilty of not listening to input and “ramming their back room deal down the throat of WNY”. If they do modify it, like they are now doing, it’s only because they’re “backpedaling”. Tell me, Mike, is there any course of action that they can take that will please you?

  29. Buffalopundit August 13, 2007 at 12:45 pm #

    South Street Seaport is bisected by the FDR Drive. The FDR Drive itself runs above the East River Drive. It does not flyover the historical part of the SSS itself.

    Would I want loading docks on that part of Main Street? Who cares? There is nothing there now. Nothing. Nada. Zip. As for the rail lines, I am pretty confident that a means could be arranged to enable box trucks to traverse the Metro Rail lines at that location in order that deliveries might be made. There is no pretty way to tell you this, but any business in that Canal block will need delivery vehicle access, as well as loading docks or some other means to deliver heavy items in bulk to the store locations.

    The entire environmental review process is (for the 50th time) already open and underway as to the changes necessitated by Bass Pro. Maybe you don’t think that Bass Pro will survive that process, but I think your assessment is premature.

    Moving the Bass Pro to Webster Block isn’t a compromise, because they want waterfront space. You can call it a compromise, but that doesn’t make it so. What ECHDC has done is an actual compromise, because iot retains Bass Pro’s waterfront location while freeing up 95% of the Central Wharf location for the green plaza everyone so desperately needs and is so desperately historically “accurate”.

    In your appeal to Steel, you insinuate that he has claimed that the canal site should have no “historicism”. I don’t think he’s said that at all. The points that he (and I) have made are:

    1. Anything that gets built there is an Epcot-like replica, and to claim otherwise is facile.

    2. It is more historically accurate to have a hulking building on the Central Wharf site than it is to have a green plaza. The Central Wharf building was 1000 feet long along the waterfront, with no public access whatsoever to the water’s edge. Bass Pro will have a boardwalk along its south side, and I’m sure they’d build out some entry/exits on the boardwalk side if not already planned.

    3. For all the talk of this location’s “uniqueness” as the birthplace of Buffalo, it becomes comical as every week a new historical shopping center is brought up to be the epitome of all that Canal Side should be.

  30. SoPark August 13, 2007 at 12:51 pm #

    PF Do you think the public would be happy about the fact that 47 million has been spent so far and not one permanent job has been created. Trouble is you Tielman guys act like it’s your money. It’s not. Too Band the public wasn’t allowed to vote on this like a Bond issue. What do you think would have happened. Why was all of this cost kept under the radar for so long? That would have been a nice down payment on a new stadium.

  31. John August 13, 2007 at 2:20 pm #

    Maybe it’s High Time for Niagara County to go after Bass Pro

    It would be great to see it on the Erir Canal and let Erie County lose the employment and tax benefits

    It’s sickining how many meetings and still NOTHING get’s done in this area

    It’s high time we tell the presevationists, all 12 of them, to Kiss our Ass and shutup

  32. BS Detector (aka Keyboard Warrior & Buffalo Hater) August 13, 2007 at 2:27 pm #

    Preservationists. Kinda like “progressives.” Benign sounding label, but just another flock of vultures pecking at the carcass of WNY.

  33. Good Grief August 13, 2007 at 2:47 pm #

    Public money should not be spent to create a bunch of minimum wage jobs as bass pro would do. You might as well just divy the millions up between the few hundred employees they would hire, that would be more impactful.

    Public money should go towards infrastructure that makes an area attractive to locate a business only.

  34. BS Detector (aka Keyboard Warrior & Buffalo Hater) August 13, 2007 at 2:55 pm #

    Amen, Amen, and Amen. Eloquently put Mr. Grief.

  35. hank kaczmarek August 13, 2007 at 3:12 pm #

    Tell me, Mike, is there any course of action that they can take that will please you?

    Dave, if you knew him, you’d know you were wasting time you cant’ get back answering that question.

    You know, if you look behind Central Terminal, there’s an awful lot of space back there that could be developed into a location for a Big Box like Bass Pro.
    Sure, it wouldn’t have Water Access for the boats,
    but the Bass Pro that Anchors the Concord Mills Mall in NC is about 25 miles from the nearest lake, and it’s not hurting them at all. They were the 1st tenant in the huge mall (makes the Galleria look like a cheese box), and their parking area near the store is jammed ALL DAY LONG…
    Good God, BUILD IT OR MOVE ON, The B S behind this is ridiculous.

  36. mike hudson August 13, 2007 at 5:23 pm #

    great point about bass pro locating in niagara county, john. while the buffalo section of the niagara river offers fair angling for the smaller, warm water species, and the lake erie fishery is kept alive only by constant and never ending stocking, niagara county offers the spectacular salmon of the lower river’s highly oxygenated waters and the spectacular seasonal runs from lake ontario. fishermen actually do come to niagara county from elsewhere, primarily for the spectaculr olcott salmon run in october. these big spenders, who often stay a week or more, stand in stark contrast to buffalo’s typical subsistence angler, for whom a plateful of sheephead or carp can seem a mighty catch.

  37. mike hudson August 13, 2007 at 5:23 pm #

    great point about bass pro locating in niagara county, john. while the buffalo section of the niagara river offers fair angling for the smaller, warm water species, and the lake erie fishery is kept alive only by constant and never ending stocking, niagara county offers the spectacular salmon of the lower river’s highly oxygenated waters and the spectacular seasonal runs from lake ontario. fishermen actually do come to niagara county from elsewhere, primarily for the spectaculr olcott salmon run in october. these big spenders, who often stay a week or more, stand in stark contrast to buffalo’s typical subsistence angler, for whom a plateful of sheephead or carp can seem a mighty fine catch.

  38. mike hudson August 13, 2007 at 5:27 pm #

    i’m not sure how that happened. posting the same thing twice, i mean. sorry.

  39. Size Nine August 13, 2007 at 8:58 pm #

    Archaeological remains are by no means “nothing there.” The streets six inches down aren’t “nothing there.” They’re the bones for a great neighborhood like the great neighborhoods we already have.

    Big box stores don’t spawn interesting, walkable, great-to-hang-out-in neighborhoods. How many big box stores “anchor” the successful retail districts we already have–Allen Street? Elmwood? How many ramp garages serve them? How many retail subsidies?

    Jane Jacobs wrote back in 1960 that the city planning profession is neurotic in its determination to ignore empirical success and replicate empirical failure. Time to extend that to certain bloggers and hangers-on.

  40. starbuck August 13, 2007 at 9:14 pm #

    All sarcasm aside, it’s really not a bad idea to put the Bass Pro somewhere in Niagara County around N. Tonawanda (near where they have the festivals and the real canal terminus, not the living-in-the-past one).

    – It would probably bring more jobs and sales tax money into the WNY by drawing more out-of-towners than would Buffalo (because of fishing differences Mike H mentioned above – but mostly because it could be marketed as “Bass Pro Niagara – 5 minutes from the Falls”).

    – At least a little less public subsidy should be involved, since no parking ramps would need to be built by BP or the developer – plenty of room for surface parking up there.

    – And a priceless down-the-road benefit is saying to Esmonde over and over again: “Ha – nice little empty historic village green space ghost town, loser!”

    (Ok maybe it wasn’t *all* sarcasm aside, but I think there’s some economic substance to the first two points.)

  41. Adam K August 14, 2007 at 9:04 am #

    What id we take the words “big box” away and use “Department Store” instead? It’s definitely accurate. Does that help explain why it makes a decent anchor?

    The footprint of the store is what matters, and it is three stories, including an aquarium and other non store attractions.

  42. TseTse August 14, 2007 at 9:32 am #

    StarBuck, you are probably correct. It is a good idea. The center of the metro region is moving rapidly north to Northern Erie – Southern Niagara county anyway. This is where most of the new jobs are being created. This is where most of the new commercial and residential construction is. This is were most of the wealth is concentrated. The current job growth numbers indicate the process is accelerating. In 50 years Buffalo mayl be a suburb of Amherst. Instead of bucking this trend maybe the dynamic should be encouraged.

  43. hank kaczmarek August 14, 2007 at 10:46 am #

    Bass Pro in NF? With that city’s history, instead of 5 years of studies and bickering and nothing ever happening,

    NF would study for 10 years, bicker for 5, pay off the mob for 2, and it would never get built either.

    Nice Try NF, but until you clean out the spiders and the mob, nothing’s gonna change up there EITHER

  44. starbuck August 14, 2007 at 11:22 am #

    Hank, no not NF, I was thinking somewhere around waterway where Canal Fest is held in North Tonawanda. I believe that’s near the county border of Niagara and Erie. Don’t know what location would make sense, but there must be plenty of potential sites along water in that area. Sounds like BP really wants a water side location.

    Anyhow the politics are all lined up currently for it to be downtown, but if that gets derailed due to the historic villagers and if BP still wants a store in WNY, I was hypothesizing they might actually end up being able to draw more customers (and thus tax revenue, and jobs) up in that area as compared to downtown.

    Also, another reason the public subsidy might be less in NT (ideally zero, but that’ll never happen) is that besides not needing to build a parking ramp there’d also be no need for “1800s style architecture”. That should save something on costs for design and construction.

  45. steve August 14, 2007 at 11:47 am #

    The idea of a Bass Pro in the Tonawandas, while not likely, is interesting. There is at least one site that might be ideal, right at the junction of the Niagara, the canal, and something called the little river that makes Tonawanda Island, well, an island. Easy water access. Major roadways nearby. Lots of infrastructure already in place. Not too far from either Buffalo or Niagara Falls.

    Sadly, however, Tim Tielman has already staked his claim there, as well, inserting himself in the debate over removing about 40 or so privately owned boathouses for a plan to develop the site put forward by the former NT mayor.

    Too long a tale to tell here, but many of the boathouses sit on public land, with a small lease payment to the city in lieu of property taxes. Many were built in the 1930s and 1940s and are in poor condition. They are viewed by many other area residents as a privilege limited to so few.

    Anyway, Tielman was brought in a year or two back, with predictable results. Historic! Unique! Fabric of the community! Don’t you dare tear these down. And so on.

    This is smaller, earlier version of the Bass Pro debate with the same ongoing result — nothing. No investment on the part of boat house owners for fear of losing their sites. No movement by the city over (in part) fear of litigation. And, a potentially valuable piece of real estate languishes.

    We are equal opportunity dysfunctional.

  46. Denizen August 14, 2007 at 2:59 pm #

    Size Nine, you are absolutely delusional if you actually think a vibrant urban neighborhood can sprout up from the weeds and gravel that our inner harbor currently is.

    “Canal Side” at its best (if the damn skyway ever comes down) will be a themed shopping attraction; a “lifestyle center” in a waterfront setting. Even if it comes off quite contrived, this isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It if makes the most amount of people enjoy their time (and spend their $$) in downtown Buffalo then it will have done it’s job correctly.

    Authentic urban neighborhoods take decades upon decades to evolve. They certainly never grow on trees. Invoking the words of Jane Jacobs won’t make this happen either. Any hope for “Canal Side” becoming such a place anytime soon is downright foolish.

  47. BS Detector (aka Keyboard Warrior & Buffalo Hater) August 14, 2007 at 3:19 pm #

    Authentic urban neighborhoods take decades upon decades to evolve.

    DING! DING! DING! DING!

    Give the man a prize. Maybe y’all will listen to him, since no one listens to me when I say these things.

    “Relocate your business to Western New York! American workers for Mexican wages…and proud of it!”

  48. mike hudson August 14, 2007 at 8:36 pm #

    note to hank: there’s no such thing as the mob.

  49. Jim Ostrowski August 14, 2007 at 9:03 pm #

    You guys ever heard of Soho?

    In the mid-eighties, I hung out there (SSSP was for Happy Hour on Fridays).

    My recollection is that Soho developed not only with no government support but with the active opposition of the government and its zoning laws.

    The concept is “spontaneous order.”

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